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Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

NYC Rent Regulation: Rent Control/Rent Stabilized, DHCR Practice/Procedures

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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby hsinorc » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:36 pm

My cousin asks the following:

I am not sure what “current code” has to do with your situation. Why are you required to come up to current code?

I am familiar with ground fault circuits and that can be as simple as replacing the actual outlets in the kitchen and bathroom with $20/each GFI’s. You could actually replace the entire circuit breaker with a GFI and make the entire buss GFI. I disagree with the statement that your unit is underpowered. From looking at your subpanel, ( you have 5- 20 amp and 1- 15 amp breaker. That is more than most apartments have considering there is no electric oven, hot water heater, or dryer. That sub panel is probably an 60-80 amp panel. Pretty big.

Again, what does today’s code have to do with your unit?


You guys are speaking a language unfamiliar to me. And, my cousin is not familiar with NYC DOB regs, etc. But, does he make valid points in this case?

Thank-you.

h.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby Sky » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:02 pm

TenantNet is correct regarding the TPP at DOB. If the job involves invasive demo and/or renovation they will need to have a plan in place to protect the resident(s): if the LL neglects to take your health and safety into account it's your right to assert it. Once a permit is filed, you can examine all the scanned docs on DOB's webiste; furthermore, once the permit is ready, it may be worthwhile to visit DOB and request to examine all the materials on file for this particular job as sometime the TPP is wording included on architect's or other drawings.

Your apartment's electrical system is likely grandfathered in due to its age.
I'm not clear on what current NYC Electrical Code and law is regarding older electrical circuits and/or mandatory upgrade paths.

My apt. had an electric upgrade a decade and a half ago, this included new feeder cables entering the apt. connected to a new breaker box (we used to have just a fuse box), resulting in the fuse box being bypassed and eliminated from the circuit. Like many apartments built early in the 20th century, rooms have only two receptacle boxes (total of 4 outlets) as there were fewer electronics and appliances in use back then. No new wiring was installed in the apt at all and everything remained in place as it was prior to the upgrade. Only one new receptacle box (w/2 outlets) was installed in the apt. as a courtesy during the upgrade. Prior to the upgrade we used to blow fuses when using the toaster so the upgrade was beneficial (no MCI). I will say this: all our old wiring is in abysmal shape, it's the old rubber/cloth insulated wires, but with the rubber now almost a century old it has turned as brittle as chalk and the cloth covering on the insulation has practically converted into dust. Any attempt to work on these circuits - just installing a lamp - needs surgical like precision and care ... if you jostle the wires, the insulation breaks off, perhaps even further along the wire where it can't be inspected, exposing bare wire. There have been fires due to this well after the time of the electric upgrade because of the old wires still in use. Subsequent to the upgrade, at times the LL had to rewire areas with new metal clad wiring as the old wiring created problems ... so for ex. my apt. is s mix of mostly old wiring with some newer wiring. It sounds like in your case, they are just going to bypass all the old wiring and entomb it in the walls, then rewire the entire apt. with new cable/receptacles and/or light switches.

Without knowing exactly what you have inside your walls, I personally think an electric upgrade if done well is worthwhile, especially if you get increased capacity and/or convenience by having double/triple/quadruple receptacles per room, less need for extension cords and power strips, greater safety (ex. GFI in kitchens and bathrooms) and reduced fire hazard.

As I mentioned, my apt. didn't even have a breaker box, it only had screw in fuses (pre-war building). Since you have a breaker box, it looks to me like your unit may have already had an upgrade. Perhaps you can search DOB for previous permits, perhaps you can do some research on your breaker box to find it's years of manufacture, thus get some rough idea of the earliest date of when it was installed, so you can be armed with knowledge of the electrical system you have. Do you know if some/all of apt's wires are metal clad ('BX') or cloth clad?

It's worth inquiring further if there's a legal requirement for the electrical upgrade or if you are grandfathered in and are just fine as you are, which may be the case. Further, if your electrics are in disrepair and need attention, it might not be cause for an MCI, but periodic required maintenance. OTOH, if there's no legal requirement that the LL do the work, you could perhaps have legal grounds to refuse it. If it's not legally required and you have legal grounds for opting out, and the new LL very much wants to upgrade the electrical system in the entire building including your unit (not an unreasonable plan) and you are strongly opposed to it, you could maybe negotiate no MCI or individual apartment improvement fees, and perhaps even negotiate assistance from the LL in moving and/or storing your property during the work ... i.e. either help from the super, or even hiring a couple guys from a moving company to assist you with boxing/ moving/replacing stuff, and at the very far end, perhaps even relocating your for a couple days during the most invasive work.

A good place to start would be to research NYC/NYS law to find out what is and isn't legally required. Btw, the NYC residential electrical code is different from much of the country. IIRC you can't use Romex in NYC, and wires have to have a metal clad (mice can eat through the plastic Romex and then die when electrocuted, starting a fire inside the wall).
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby 10ants » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:50 pm

Presumably the LL wants to upgrade the whole building at once. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me, and there do seem to be benefits of the upgrade.

Older wiring is generally grandfathered in, but I don't see what the legal basis for preventing the rewiring of your apartment would be -- the wiring is 40+ years old and not up to current standards.

Also (sky), you can use romex now in some cases.

I'd ask the LL to make it easy by hiring a helper to move books/furniture away from the walls. A competent electrician can do this without massive disruption.

To be honest, there are battles worth fighting, but trying to prevent your landlord from upgrading the electrical system probably isn't one of them.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby hsinorc » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:16 pm

Thank-you TenantNet, 10ants, and Sky for your thoughtful replies, there is a lot of information for me here, and much for me to sort through. Here are some brief thoughts:

1. In reviewing the DOB records for the rewiring previously done in individual units (last year), I find no TPPs, nor do I recall any notices in the building when this work was being done, concerning hazardous conditions. Therefore, I will look into this when this work gets scheduled, to make sure that I am safe while the work is being done.

2. Thank you 10ants for this reply, it's logical and seems sound, and I do not disagree at all. What I really wanted was more time to prepare, to have them do the work next summer, when they do the rest of the units. That would give me time to move stuff out, reorganize, and make the whole job easier. However, you are right, this is probably not a battle to choose. I do not dispute the benefits of re-wiring, I just know that it is going to turn my apartment into a nightmare, and they are claiming it will take 3 weeks. I may just have to roll with it.

Do you know: will I have electricity while the work is going on? Will they leave the old outlets functioning until the new sub-panel, wiring. and outlets are installed, so that I can have electricity during the nights when their work is finished for the day, and on weekends, during this 2-3 week period? Or am I likely to be under blackout conditions during the entire ordeal?

(And, do you agree that it should take 2-3 weeks? This apartment is a 1-BR, 700 sq.ft.)

Thanks, again, everyone, I appreciate the good counsel.

h.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby TenantNet » Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:51 pm

There have been a bunch of replies since my last post, so I'll try to respond if needed.

First, let's not make this the never-ending thread. We had one a few months ago that dragged on and on and on. Remember, if you wait 21 weeks, then post, I won't remember anything about all the previous posts.

As for reasoning with the contractor regarding moving your stuff. in my view it's incumbent for them or the building staff to consult with you ahead of time so they can inform you of their workflow plans ... so you can move only the part of the room being worked on. If it were me, if they show up on day 1, I would not have moved anything until they give you that information. And also, they might help move the larger items just to facilitate their work. But don't be rushed, especially if you have delicate items.

As for your cousin, that's like hiring any lawyer who claims to handle tenant issues as a sideline. You get what you pay for. Unless your cousin is a licensed electrician with knowledge of NYC electrical code, I'd be careful.

No one can tell everything by those photos. The second photo is meaningless .. you need to see the actual wiring in the box. But yes, it "looks" like 20A breakers in a box. These days a kitchen probably requires 1 or 2 circuits. Most medium-sized (1 BR) units these days will have wiring of around 100-120A total, but that really depends on a number of factors.

Understand that many old apartments have far less amperage. That might be legal as grandfathered with no legal requirement to upgrade. Before my LL "upgraded" my unit, I had all of 15 A. for my entire apartment. That's something that was common in the 1950's.

Unless something else triggers it, there is no legal requirement to upgrade. But look, the LL can upgrade whether or not it's required. You can tell him you're "up to code" but it's his call. You should visit DOB and research the last time the power was upgraded.

As for GFCI, 10 Ants is correct they are required in kitchens, but that's a ten-minute operation to change the wall receptacle. OTOH, I can't speak to AFCIs being required elsewhere. See https://goo.gl/z3BMkM -- but also, that is another 10 minutes to change the breaker.

As for your selling books and so on, I think you're making too much of this. This is not a gut rehab of the unit. Sure it's a hassle, but it can be manageable if you understand that YOU are in control of how the work is done.

BTW, I don't think you said -- is the LL replacing feeder cables to the unit (from the entrance to the building to all the units?)

As for what you need, well that depends on you and the unit. I was happy with 15A but I know how to balance usage and had a very small AC (4,000 BTU). Those that don't know this will often blow fuses or breakers. Now I can run the TV, the AC, the computer and even kitchen items all at once.

Here's something on Romex in NYC http://goo.gl/H37mT3

Finally you say the unit is 700 SF. Mine is half that size and took 2 days.

Here's an email my LL sent me before they did the work. Understand I had insist on how things were done - and I demanded a written scope of the work:

Dear ______,

Thank your for your response to my recent letter. Pursuant to your offered dates, I have scheduled an appointment with _______ Electric Corporation for 9 AM on Tuesday, April __ to commence work on the electrical upgrade in your apartment. It is expected that the electrical work necessary should be completed within that day.

The basic scope of work that electricians will be doing is to run new cable wiring, known in the industry as "BX Cable", from the new circuit breaker box, which will replace the older fuse panel in your apartment, to the existing wires to your electrical outlets and switches. In addition, we will be adding a dedicated outlet for air conditioning in your bedroom as well as a new outlet in your kitchen area for an appliance. In order to do this, it will be necessary to break open parts of your walls to run this bx cabling. The areas being worked on will be tapered off with plastic from the rest of the apartment, to reduce the amount of dust that will occur and the contractor will fill the broken areas with cement as a temporary repair. The workers will remove all plastics and drop cloths upon finishing their work.

Once electricians have completed their work, another contractor, ___________, will come in the next day and make a permanent repair by removing the cement, plastering the broken areas, and repaint the entire wall area. I would expect this to be finished in one day.
If you have any questions, you can reach me at the number listed above; otherwise we will see you on October 16th.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby hsinorc » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:12 pm

Thank you, TenantNet, I did not mean to drag this thread out ad infinitum (or ad nauseum), but I was researching the things that you and others were alerting me to between posts. I believe I am resigned to having this work done, and will take the steps that you and others have suggested in order to see to the orderly and non-disruptive completion of the work.

I do not know if they are replacing 'feeder cables,' but I will ask about it.

I was using the broker's 'stated' footage for identical units in recent listings. I just measured the rooms: this unit is no more than 400 sq. ft.

Thanks again for all your help, it's much appreciated.

h.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby hsinorc » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:57 pm

I'm sorry to revisit this never-ending post, but new developments raise several questions.

An attorney contacted me on behalf of the LL, offering to move me and my furniture and possessions into an upstairs apartment in order to permit the re-wiring to proceed in my apartment. We talked about my bed and desk, TV, etc., but not my bookshelves, piano, etc.

That upstairs unit was vacated at the end of June, and they began re-wiring on June 30. I saw it during the work, all the baseboards had been ripped out, and the walls going along the top were ripped open to reveal the electrical wiring for the ceiling fixtures. Dust and debris were everywhere, the place was a disaster zone.

I do not see how they can do this work in my apt. with my furniture and possessions still here. I can only imagine that the dust and debris will be in everything, including my piano, my closets and clothes, my electronics, etc. I think they would need to (and will want to) move EVERYTHING out of my unit, to completely vacate it, to do this work.

Q1: Am I right to be wary about completely vacating my regulated unit while this work is being done? If I move out like this, is there any legal precedent for them to claim 'vacancy,' and try to deregulate it? Likewise, should I be wary that they will cause some calamity while the work is proceeding that will make my unit uninhabitable? (The newspapers are filled with stories about this kind of practice lately.)

Q2: My unit has a sub-panel with circuit breakers and grounded 3-prong outlets. So far they have re-wired several units in the building (during renovations between vacancies), just adding a newer sub-panels and outlets, but they have not brought risers up from the meter in the basement. They say they want to bring the building up to code, but without re-wiring the main feed from the basement, it's not up to code, is it? Won't they have to come in later, and go through the whole process again when they bring risers up?

I know that this 1910 building is grandfathered into the new elec. code (2011), and there is no legal requirement to do this work in my apt. Moreover, the code seems to require re-wiring for grandfathered buildings only in units where renovation is happening; my unit is not in this category.

I know we spoke earlier about picking your fights, and I do not want to pick an unreasonable fight with the LL, but do you think I am right to be wary under these circumstances? Or do you think I am making too much of the relocation and vacancy, etc.?

Thank-you in advance.

h.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby TenantNet » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:09 pm

I haven't gone back to re-read all the prior posts, so this is just reacting to what you've said today. Do you have a lawyer on this? I wouldn't even entertain a move without a lawyer. LLs are notorious for getting tenants out this way, and keeping them out.

Another alternative is to let you stay in the upstairs unit at the same rent. You would need a binding agreement.

In my opinion, they need to have new risers. Do you know the electrical capacity of the old risers? They can add all the breakers they want, but the riser capacity will limit what you can do.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby hsinorc » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:59 pm

Thanks so much for your reply. I do not have a lawyer. Do you mean that LL's are notorious for this 'bait and switch' tactic? If so, then I am right to be wary.

As for staying in the upstairs unit, it is not stabilized, it's Fair Market Value, and my unit is the last Rent Stabilized unit in the building. I cannot abandon this unit and enter a FMV unit without losing my Rent Stabilized status, can I?

At this point I am thinking that I should refuse to allow this work under those circumstances. What could they do, go to court to force me? Would a court force me, under these circumstances?

Thanks, again.

h.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby TenantNet » Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:37 pm

There are ways in a relocation agreement, if done with a good tenant attorney, to make the RS status binding on a new unit, even if it is not RS. But not just any lawyer, an experienced tenant attorney is needed. Also consider that the upstairs unit might not have been legally deregulated.

Personally I would not move unless the upstairs place is a whole lot better. I had electrical upgrading done to my unit a few years back. While disruptive, I was able to deal with it. You have have them do partial work to start with other partial work later, so you are not required to move.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby Sky » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:50 pm

It's likely the work could be done with you living in the apartment (but that's not to say it would be expedient, uncomplicated, convenient, or desirable for either you or the LL).

I had extensive renovations performed while I occupied my apartment, magnitudes more invasive than anything you are likely to encounter with an electrical upgrade. I had a LL that was demonstrably untrustworthy and who wanted things done his way (i.e. cheap, unsafe, illegal, non-code compliant, and with complete disregard for my wishes and welfare) and who had the funds and incentive to engage in extensive meritless litigation in order to use the opportunity to try to wear me down, bankrupt me, uproot me, relocate me, and/or permanently evict me, as well as using all other sorts of tactics both in and out of court to run me out, wear me down, intimidate me, and make my ilife a living hell. In the end I did not relocate and the owner was forced to spend heaps of time and money to make it safe to work around me while I occupied the apartment and this was 'so ordered' by the courts. Both the legal battle and construction spanned several years.

If you consider your rent regulated apartment and lease a valuable asset to your life in NYC, and you wish to enjoy your home for years to come, you will need to have a good attorney who specialises in representing tenants draft an ironclad relocation agreement specifying all the terms of relocation and remedies available to you should the agreement be violated. I do not know the LL entity you are dealing with, but in my case I had to consider what options I'd have if the LL used the relocation as an opportunity to prevent me from returning to my apartment with his abundant funds and litigious nature. An agreement is good … but what happens in the event that it's violated? What's your remedy? How much and how long might it cost to enforce it to get you back into your apartment? What if it cost $40k to fight a brutal bare fisted legal battle to restore you to possession?

Books, pianos, pipe organs, your immense Etruscan egg collection, are all the LL's problem, not your problem. He wants to do the upgrade, he needs to reasonably accommodate you.

You'd want something that makes it clear the LL would cover all your packing/moving/storage/insurance/bond expenses for you and your possessions as well as your rental burden on your unoccupied apt, plus free rent for a relocation apartment. There should be a provision for you to continue living rent free for as long as the project takes no matter what the cause, source, or whose responsibility it is for any and all delays. You want a firm return date, with additional bonus penalties for each day beyond that it takes for you to be restored to your fully functioning and habitable unit, as an incentive to ward off any LL monkey business associated with dragging the work out for as long as humanly possible as a tactic to wear you down. You want no rent increase whatsoever, no IAI or MCI associated with the upgrade. You want complete clarity protecting the rent regulated status of your apartment. You want the place you are relocated into to be comfortable should you be there for an extended unforeseen period of time. You want a mechanism to inspect and declare the work satisfactorily completed and the apartment fully habitable and not altered beyond the scope of work clearly agreed upon. You want your legal remedies clearly spelled out should the LL violate the agreement. You want the LL to pay the legal expenses you incur associated with drafting the aforementioned relocation agreement. You want something ironclad. A good tenant attorney can do this for you.

You obtain all of the above, or something as close to that as you are comfortable living with, or you continue with the status quo and tell your LL to stuff it.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby hsinorc » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:23 pm

Thank-you TenantNet and Sky for your comprehensive replies, they have been most helpful.
Best regards,
h.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby hsinorc » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:44 am

Hi again,

This re-wiring never got done last summer, due to scheduling conflicts. Now the LL is back, and wanting to do it this summer. Two items at issue:

1) they have NOT installed new feeders (risers) from the basement, but are just re-wiring individual apartments with new fuse boxes, wiring, and outlets; they have done at least half the units in this 10-unit building, but last month vacated, repainted, and re-leased two units without re-wiring (so I'm wondering why the hurry with my occupied apartment(?); and

2) Because my job has me too busy this summer, but next August will ease up, I have proposed doing it then, so that I can clear out some 'stuff' and make the baseboards more accessible. I propose to live here while the work is being done, not wanting to leave my possessions here (40 years worth of 'stuff,' some valuable, but all personal, of course), and not wanting my keys distributed to workers who might then make copies, etc.).

They state that I cannot remain in the apartment while this work is being done. I quote a correspondence received from the building manager:

The owners ...stated that it is not practical to remain in the apartment while the work is going on as there will be no power in the unit and it is not a safe to remain there while work is being done. The contractors will not perform the work if someone is there – even if given full release. The owners will pay for your stay in a short let or a hotel while the work is going on. It is imperative that the electrical work be completed as it will be improving the safety for you in your unit as well as the building as a whole.

My 2-year renewal began June 1, but I am leery of 'moving out' of my stabilized unit (the last remaining regulated unit in the building) for fear that they may create some kind of 'mishap' that will render the apartment uninhabitable, thus endangering my regulated apartment. Maybe this fear is unfounded, but I have heard accounts (some on this forum, I believe) of unscrupulous LLs doing such things. (And, of course, they can do this even if I am 'living-in' during the work, too.)

Lastly, I am not (yet) concerned about MCI, as they have been doing this work 'piecemeal' over 3 years.

Any advice before I respond to this ultimatum? Even though they have not installed new risers (feeders), should I nevertheless allow this rewiring in my unit? Must I/should I move out while it is being done, or am I justified in suspecting the possibility of foul play? Do I have a right to insist that I remain while the work is being done? Is it worth the fight (do I want to pick this fight)?

Thanks in advance,

h.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby TenantNet » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:10 pm

Don't have time to look at this now. If I forget, you can "bump" a reminder that I'll see. But there's no way I'm going to re-read all the prior messages.

Whatever you do, do NOT move out. It's a LLs way to get you out and not let you back in. Sky had a similar issue (did he write about it?) He resisted and they finally did the work with him in occupancy, and his work was much more extensive.

I had rewiring done in my apt a few years back. There is no reason to move out. Make sure everything is in writing, record conversations with a smartphone, take many photos/videos. If they persist, get a lawyer.
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Re: Re-Wiring Occupied Apartment?

Postby hsinorc » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:12 pm

Thank-you, TN, there is no need to re-read priors, I have summarized everything needed in this post. Thank-you, again.
H.

Okay, thank-you for the advice; I will heed it.
Much appreciated-
h.
Last edited by hsinorc on Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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