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Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

NYC Rent Regulation: Rent Control/Rent Stabilized, DHCR Practice/Procedures

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Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby sr77 » Thu May 05, 2016 9:43 pm

Most of the living space in a friend's rental apartment in a 10-unit brownstone is located under the terrace of the apartment directly above his.

The new tenant in that apartment regularly does some kind of physical workout on the terrace that results in major pounding noise coming through into my friend's apartment. The new tenant insists he can make whatever noise he wants up until 11:00pm. (He apparently is also related to the landlord.)

What recourse does my friend have?

Are there any special laws that apply to a tenant's use of their terrace -- e.g., as an outdoor gym?

If relevant, my friend's apartment is rent-stabilized but the other apts. in the building are now all unregulated.

Thanks.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby TenantNet » Fri May 06, 2016 7:46 am

First, noise-related issued are the hardest to deal with in NYC. One reason is that the noise is subjective. You may have really noisy tenants who are playing music too loud, or engaging in activity such as you describe. But OTOH, you will find tenants who are hyper-sensitive to anything going on in adjacent apartments, including normal walking.

First thing is to speak to the tenant, which apparently has been done. Second is to investigate and document. Keep a record of when the noise occurs. Can the person see into the unit to see what is actually being done? Does the tenant have weight equipment that can be noisy?

While there is a noise code in NYC, it's ambiguous as to a lot of issues. http://goo.gl/oMndz and http://goo.gl/04457i and http://nycquiethours.com/

One thing is to call 311. Don't expect the city to actually do anything, but it's a way of documenting when something happens.

At a certain point you would want to complain to the landlord. You might get some action and you might not. Depends on the LL.

I've never seen any reference to 11 PM stop time (although there does seem to be a 10 PM limit), but here's how I look at it. During the daytime and (to a point) evening hours some normal noise should be permitted and tolerated. It's a noisy city and we all live close to each other. I hear my neighbor flush his toilet, but even at 3 AM that's normal.

But turning one's unit into a gymnasium with weigh machines or a recording studio with live guitars and drums should be objectionable even if at 12 noon.

But again, it's subjective. We can't pass judgment from a forum.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby sr77 » Fri May 06, 2016 5:36 pm

Thanks. I was wondering more whether limitations on certain types of noise are spelled out anywhere. For example, can a sculptor use a pneumatic drill to create his art work regardless of its effect on other tenants? It would seem that habitable/residential apartments aren't intended to be used for certain purposes, including as gymnasiums if heavy equipment, etc. end up creating noise at the level of major construction.

> But turning one's unit into a gymnasium with weigh machines or a recording studio
> with live guitars and drums should be objectionable even if at 12 noon.

But does "objectionable" have any legal/regulatory definition that one can refer to? Otherwise it would seem to become "I object to your…" v. "And I object to your objecting to my…"
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby TenantNet » Sun May 08, 2016 3:56 am

Yes, look at the noise code. It's pretty specific in terms of noise in decibels and location of measurement. But I doubt you're going to get a city inspector the exact time it's going on.

I am aware as to how much noise gym equipment can make (I use the YMCA where the clanking of weight machines can get pretty loud). Same for the motor hum of treadmills.

But in practice, it really comes down to what is reasonable. Strumming an acoustic guitar at noon is one thing, but not at 3 AM. But an electric guitar with full amplification is really no reasonable at noon.

And there are people that are hyper-sensitive to almost anything, including walking. There's not much that can be done for them.

If a tenant is making noise as part of commercial activity, that raises additional questions.

Seems your next step is to speak/write to the LL.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby sr77 » Mon May 09, 2016 8:11 pm

Thanks. I've looked through the documents you linked (thanks for those) but didn't really find anything relevant except a portion dealing with "common courtesy." And as you indicated, actual noise measurements aren't likely to be practical.

The LL is already aware. At best, he's probably kind of in between a rock and a hard place, since his inclination will be to not want to overly-admonish the tenant with the equipment, who is apparently his grandson.

You referred to what's "reasonable." The examples you chose were re: music, though. What in your view would be reasonable in terms of gym equipment being used on a terrace? I would say that a terrace isn't intended to be a substitute gym at all, and that if the tenant below's 'living space' is directly below it and is bothered there should be no question about having to dispense with that use of it.

I view music as a different situation, because unless the bass is really turned up, the noise is more of the 'ambient' type, rather than the pounding and banging that's occurring with the gym equipment.

I don't know whether applicable laws or codes make any such distinction, though.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby TenantNet » Mon May 09, 2016 11:02 pm

Music w/o bass can be just as annoying.

Codes are written in decibels in order to be objective; but noise is subjective most of the time.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby sr77 » Sat May 14, 2016 3:16 pm

TenantNet wrote:Music w/o bass can be just as annoying.


Thanks. That's true but I've found that when noise is just ambient -- as with music that doesn't have pounding bass -- earplugs are usually sufficient to block enough of it that it's tolerable.

Is there nothing specific then about the use of a terrace that would limit its use as a gym? It's the pounding and banging that's the problem.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby TenantNet » Sat May 14, 2016 7:38 pm

There are no laws that say you can't exercise on a terrace.In buildings built after 1939 - and some older if altered since then - they often have a Certificate of Occupancy, which will likely say something like "floors 2-10, residential, 6 apartments each" or whatever is your building. These can be accessed by the Dept. of Buildings website. Now, if you can show that what the person is doing is something more than a treadmill for personal exercise, then you might have a point (but good luck getting anyone to enforce it). If he's running it as a commercial or professional gym, that's not residential IMHO.

Otherwise you're stuck with pressuring the LL. You'll be better off if other tenants are also being annoyed by the noise. Ask around.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby sr77 » Tue May 17, 2016 1:31 am

Thanks. I didn't mean a law specifically against 'exercising' on a terrace, but one concerning using the terrace as a home gym -- i.e., with equipment that makes noise (not mechanical noise but pounding, banging, etc.), sends continuous vibrations through walls and ceilings (in fact even the floor) of the apartment below, etc.

No suggestion of an actual 'commercial' gym -- just a tenant who refuses to be concerned about the effect of what he's doing on the tenant below.

Since this is specifically occurring because the terrace that's being used as a gym is situated directly over most of the living space of the apartment directly below, it affects only the tenant in the latter apartment.

> "Otherwise you're stuck with pressuring the LL."

What pressure can be brought to bear on the landlord, other than pestering him? If you recall, there's a potentially sticky additional issue here because the noisy tenant, a relatively new occupant of the building, is the landlord's grandson.

Thanks again.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby TenantNet » Wed May 18, 2016 2:19 am

Pressure on the LL? That's what this entire website is about.

You can:
- withhold rent
- file complaint to DHCR (reduction in services - quiet is a service)
- file complaints with city
- take the LL to court
and probably a host of other things. But before you do, consider that litigation has its ups and downs. Be warned.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby sr77 » Thu May 19, 2016 12:05 am

- file complaints with city

Thanks. Which city agency would the complaint be filed with?

a host of other things

Is there a source I could consult to know what these are?

consider that litigation has its ups and downs

Other than expenditure of time, money & aggravation -- & possibly losing the case -- what are the 'downs'?
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby BubbaJoe123 » Thu May 19, 2016 10:27 am

consider that litigation has its ups and downs

Other than expenditure of time, money & aggravation -- & possibly losing the case -- what are the 'downs'?


1. Your friend is the only RS tenant in the building - the LL is probably already negatively disposed toward him (since he's probably paying less in rent than the other tenants). Suing the landlord would give the LL additional incentive to want to get your friend out. Certainly, it won't help the relationship with the landlord.
2. Suing the LL could result in your friend getting onto the tenant blacklist (which is based on housing court records), making it harder to rent an apartment in the future.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby sr77 » Thu May 19, 2016 11:57 am

Suing the landlord would give the LL additional incentive to want to get your friend out. Certainly, it won't help the relationship with the landlord. Suing the LL could result in your friend getting onto the tenant blacklist (which is based on housing court records), making it harder to rent an apartment in the future.


Thanks. Those are certainly the case. However, I suppose any kind of complaint action would risk the same. I don't think it will come to that (i.e., a court case).

Do any of the city agencies that take complaints about these kinds of situations have a better record when it comes to response, enforcement, etc. As far as I know, DHCR's reputation has never been good when it comes to those.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby 10ants » Thu May 19, 2016 2:13 pm

A lot of leases have 'prevailing party pays' clauses, so your friend could wind up paying for the LL's lawyer.
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Re: Neighbor noise from use of terrace as a gym

Postby TenantNet » Fri May 20, 2016 5:14 am

That only works in Housing Court non-pays or holdovers. Doesn't apply for complaints made to DHCR, DOB, DEP and other city/state agencies (or even to a HP Action brought by the tenant in Housing Court). And it might not apply to a case brought in Supreme Court by the tenant. But yes, the tenant should get legal advice before starting any case in court.
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