TenantNet Forum

Where tenants can seek help and help others



Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

NYC Rent Regulation: Rent Control/Rent Stabilized, DHCR Practice/Procedures

Moderator: TenantNet

Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby hotsawce » Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:34 am

Hey all,

I'm in a strange situation with my landlord. Basically, he says apartment is not stabilized (despite being on a stabilized lease but no rider was given to me,) I think it is stabilized. He is also trying to boot me in what I believe is a retaliatory move; I filed a complaint with HPD regarding a pest issue he wouldn't address and it opened a can of worms for them re: the building.

The building was built in 1931 and has 6 units, so criteria is met there. To my knowledge, nothing has been substantially renovated and the area is unlikely to deregulate the apartment through touching any of the rent thresholds. My apartment has a fresh coat of paint and semi-recent appliances, but nothing crazy (and I couldn't find any permits pulled for any work done, so I doubt any of this was registered with DHCR.)

amirentstabilized.com pegs my building as likely having rent stabilized units, but the big kicker is the annual rent registration. My building doesn't appear on the city's list of regulated buildings, but to appear on that list you have to file rent registrations annually.

Turns out, the building was registered in 1984 (the required initial registration) but not annually after that. The website where you can search most recent registration states 1984, and I believe that should update to a recent year for ANY unit in the building registered as regulated. All of the neighbors buildings of similar age (and better condition, to be honest) show up in the system as registered recently (2021) but not my building - and all of the other tenants have been here YEARS. the apartments are old... not renovated. The hallways are old. Everything looks like it probably was in the 30s.

So, I don't know what units were registered in 84 but I find it highly suspicious there wasn't a single registration since then. I think they haven't been registering and likely haven't been offering stabilized leases since then (is my gut feeling based on the last filing date and the neighbors who have been here for a while, including the landlord's mother.) Likely not malicious, but probably very ignorant.

Consequently, I'm thinking my unit probably is stabilized since I can't find permits for the unit that would have led to a rent increase and it hasn't been registered since 84. As a result, I think the rent is probably frozen at those levels in that year.

I've requested my rent history and case files/dockett numbers. I will have a private tenant attorney review this. But if the rent hasn't been registered annually, I don't know what will show up at my door (if anything.)

So yea, that's my situation. I'd love to hear from anyone who might have opinion or insight on this...but will update as the situation develops. I'm hoping to bring 6 units into rent regulation if they really haven't been registering regulated units for 40 years. And I can't think of or see any improvement from 84 that would have not required a filing in 85 or forward...
hotsawce
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby TenantNet » Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:03 am

The DHCR Rider does not make or break RS status. Neither does your lease being a "RS lease." Most likely it's a regular lease that just says the place is RS. That can help your case, but won't make your case.

Only the courts or DHCR can decide if it's RS or not (or a settlement between parties and "so ordered" by a judge). You say it was built in 1931 and has 6 units. So unless it was converted to coop/condo or deregulated, it should still be RS. (there are a few other exceptions). Paint and appliances (stove, fridge, etc) are unlikely to push a unit beyond the deregulation trigger. Of course the LL would have to assert and prove all that.

DOB permits are only needed in some cases. Many things can be changed without the need for DOB permits. Even so, it might be important ... but also remember that DHCR doesn't care if an improvement was legal; they only care if the LL has a cancelled check. The lack of permits does not mean nothing was done. Don't make that assumption.

The site amirentstabilized.com really doesn't do much that you can't do yourself. And some of their "resources," in our view, are really fronts for real estate. I found some of their recommended groups who are actually landlords. I'd be careful.

Sites like this are often created by people making apps during their lunch breaks. Seriously many are not even tenant advocates, and often don't understand the complexity and nuance of tenant issues. Determining RS status is a process. (we've been doing this since 1985).

Understand there are no "rent stabilized buildings." It's the unit that is RS (or not RS). Buildings often have a mix of units, so calling a building RS is a misnomer.

Second, registrations are what LLs submit to DHCR, and DHCR doesn't check them. Again, they can be of some value, and can discredit more recent LL statements. But they do not make a case either way.

You say, "The website where you can search most recent registration states 1984..." What website is that? URL?

For RS, the building had to be registered once, in 1984. But the individual units have to be registered each year. An apartment being registered, for example, in 2021, does not update the 1984 building registration. So I'm not sure what is your point there.

You asked for your rent history, so review ti ASAP when you get it. Talk to neighbors who can maybe tell you who lived in the unit over the years. You might even be able to find one of the departed tenants who can verify any work that might have been done ... or not.

Has the LL alleged deregulation, or any work that would qualify as an IAI and that could take the rent above the threshold?

Your gut may be correct. The LL might just be ignoring registration requirements. Maybe they are just lazy, or dishonest.

But you still need to do more research to make a case. Also understand you can file your complaints on your apartment, but not others (unless you can convince DHCR to look at the entire building, which is highly unlikely). You only have legal standing for your apartment.

I would be careful about what you say to the LL now that he knows you're poking around. Keep it low on the radar until you have all your evidence ... or have a handle on the LL's explanation and his defense.
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.

Subscribe to our Twitter Feed @TenantNet
TenantNet
 
Posts: 10306
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New York City

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby hotsawce » Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:35 am

Aware of everything you are saying re: evidence, building vs units, etc etc. I’m keeping largely quiet until I figure everything out and will get a consultancy with a tenant attorney once I have everything.

This is the website I’m referring to https://apps.hcr.ny.gov/BuildingSearch/

I understand any annual registration doesn’t update the 1984 registration, but I believe (and was told by the tenant protection unit) any annual registration for any stabilized unit in the building SHOULD update “last registration on file” date to the year it was filed in.

For example, a number of my neighbors have buildings with units in them that are stabilized - they have registered annually since 1984 and the last registration date updates and shows on that website.

The last registration on file for my building is 84, and I know there are untouched units in the building. One would expect if he filed a registration for any of the units, that last registration date for filings would have updated at some point. I can’t think of any reason the last filing would be the required initial filing in 84.

But yea, just waiting on the rent history. Though the landlord asserted it wasn’t regulated when he refused to offer me a renewal lease, my gut tells me it’s stabilized, he just wants to get rid of me, and there hasn’t been enough work done to meet the legal requirement for deregulation. But we’ll see and I’ll keep the forum posted.
hotsawce
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby TenantNet » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:23 pm

This database is from DHCR and doesn't say a heck of a lot, and certainly not any legal determination. I looked up my building, a mix of RS, RC and unregulated apartments. It really says nothing other than that RC units might exist in the building (we still have a few). The last registration refers to apartment registrations, that's all (and you clarified that). But again, it doesn't mean much at all, only that the LL apparently hasn't filed since 1984.

Did you know LLs can update registrations retroactively and it will look like they complied all along?

In the old days LLs had to fill out and mail (to DHCR) copies of registrations they had mailed to tenants. Now, they just send it (to DHCR) over the internet, and usually send all registrations for a building in a single file. In fact, there are specialized companies that LLs can hire to do the work. This makes sense for LLs that own many large buildings, but not for the LL that owns one tenement building.

All I'm saying is that the registration system was set up to fail, and that it has done so very well.

Take it one step at a time, look at the long game. Look for instance where he might have claimed it was deregulated due to high rent, high income or other reasons. For any of those, there has to be explanations, like an entry on the registration. But if there has been no registration since 1984, and since deregulation didn't even begin until 1993, he can't make that claim.
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.

Subscribe to our Twitter Feed @TenantNet
TenantNet
 
Posts: 10306
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New York City

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby hotsawce » Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:19 pm

Yea, that’s what I’m banking on. I have no idea what the rent history will say (if anything at all) but if he hasn’t registered anything since 84 and deregulation can’t begin until 93, well I don’t know what could have deregulated the unit.

If there has to be an entry on the registration to claim deregulation, and he hasn’t registered anything since ‘84, and it couldn’t even be deregulated until 93, I’m banking on the apartment being stabilized.

I’m guessing the rent history will answer some questions but I’m wondering if the rent history will even show past 84. And if he potentially hasn’t been offering stabilized leases since that time, even if he claimed something like high rent in later years I believe there can be no legal rent increases or deregulation in years he doesn’t register or offer a stabilized lease (or something like that)

So far, he has only said “it’s not a stabilized unit and you don’t have a stabilized lease,” to which I responded by sending a picture of the stabilized lease he signed (last week) and haven’t heard back from him since. He has no idea I’m digging into this. I think he just wants me out because I raised the pest issue with HPD which opened a can of worms on the building (apparently registering rents isn’t the only thing he refused to do) and by not offering me a renewal and being retaliatory and harassing he’s opening another can of worms
hotsawce
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby TenantNet » Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:35 pm

The thing about rent regulation is that anything can happen. LLs get very creative with their excuses and DHCR will buy almost any explanation. People that have doing this stuff for decades can be surprised. That's why sites like amirentstabilized aren't worth a lot.

Wait and see what the history says. Dig up info from other sources. You will have to see what the LL offers as an excuse, but don't let him tailor his excuse to your complaint - keep it quiet until you're ready.

Also look to see if any other tenant has made that claim and what the excuse was in that case. You should be able to FOIL from DHCR any decision from any unit at your address. If the LL has other buildings, look there as well to see how he plays the game.
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.

Subscribe to our Twitter Feed @TenantNet
TenantNet
 
Posts: 10306
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New York City

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby hotsawce » Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:19 pm

The landlords family has been in one unit forever, I believe the neighbors across the hall from me have been there for years, the other downstairs neighbor that just passed has been there for 30+ years also. So not much turnover in the building. You'd think at least one of those apartments would have produced a registration for a later year.

They only have the one building and it's under the landlords name (not even a LLC) so it's not like they are running some sophisticated operation here. I think more than likely they are probably ignorant and have never been challenged but we'll see.

The last thing they said to me was "you don't have rent stabilized lease and the apartment is not rent stabilized," which prompted a response from me of the photo of my lease that says rent stabilized. Haven't heard back in a week after sending that photo and I'm not prompting anything else. I assume he's probably pooping his pants right now. They don't know I pulled the rent history yet.

I've looked on a number of city websites for updates on the apartment and haven't seen much of anything regarding filings of permits for my apartment or the building - not that much would show up but I'm doing every bit of digging I can.

They basically hate me for exercising my right as a tenant to have everything up to code in the apartment and have a pest free apartment (things I mentioned kindly multiple times that they did not address, hence leading me to file the HPD complaint.) I'm not out to get them but they are certainly treating it the situation that way. I think the easy solution for them is thinking they can just boot me out.

They also don't do anything else by the book. I received a call stating he didn't want to renew the lease 11 days before the end of the lease (not even up to snuff if I wasn't rent stabilized...they need to give 30 days written notice) so this landlord just does whatever he wants with no regard for the law to be honest.

I requested the rent history last week and I'm hoping to receive it this week.
hotsawce
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby TenantNet » Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:41 am

See the link to the Lebovits articles on the 2019 rent laws. I think the time of notice now depends on how long you've lived in the unit. If you've lived there for more than 2 years, there must be 90 days notice. Even then you could then assert RS status.
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.

Subscribe to our Twitter Feed @TenantNet
TenantNet
 
Posts: 10306
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New York City

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby hotsawce » Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:11 pm

Should I FOIL request, by email, the HRVD-N form should it exist? Anything else?

I just saw that recommended in a other thread so if it was deregulated that way there should be a completed form by the landlord, correct?
hotsawce
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby TenantNet » Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:38 pm

Sure, go ahead and FOIL it from DHCR. You want to get as much evidence as possible that helps or hurts your case.

Read this (pop quiz afterwards)
https://hcr.ny.gov/system/files/documen ... 021_00.pdf

I'd also ask for the building detail and apartment detail. See what cases were filed for all apartments, and you can FOIL all those decisions. (or ask the tenants for copies).
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.

Subscribe to our Twitter Feed @TenantNet
TenantNet
 
Posts: 10306
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New York City

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby hotsawce » Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:01 pm

Well, I received my rent history and it looks like it was listed as stabilized in 1984 and nothing has been filed since that date (this is just the first page but its no registration found through 2021.

Thoughts?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
hotsawce
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby TenantNet » Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:13 am

I have no thoughts as I can't read it. Read my notes in today's other thread about posting documents. You can't read anything that's at 72 dpi.

Make it full size, a PDF, in portrait mode, at 300 dpi. Attach it rather than posting it as an inline image. And don't post anything with private information on it; use private mail if unsure.

Best to use a scanner if you have one. A phone snapshot will work if you're very careful and in focus, but position it so half the page is not in a shadow.
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.

Subscribe to our Twitter Feed @TenantNet
TenantNet
 
Posts: 10306
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New York City

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby hotsawce » Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:20 am

Long story short - 1984 registered as rent stabilized tenant, legal rent at 320. Nothing for preferential rent or actual rent paid. Nothing from that date to 2021. "Reg not found for subject premises"

I'll try to adjust it and repost in a bit. No identifying information on the document.
hotsawce
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby hotsawce » Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:09 pm

PDF Attached - this is just the first page but it's "reg not found for subject premises" all the way through 2021
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
hotsawce
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Fishy Situation - Stabilized?

Postby TenantNet » Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:42 pm

On deadline, will respond when I can.
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.

Subscribe to our Twitter Feed @TenantNet
TenantNet
 
Posts: 10306
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New York City

Next

Return to NYC Rent Regulated Apartments

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests