Sublet in Rent Control Apt.

[venecin]

I have been subletting a rent controlled apt from a friend of the family for years. There is no written lease that exists,as he had moved here in the 1960's. There are no lease renewals, just occasional adjustments on the bills that arrive from the mgt. company in the original tennants name.
I have been here for over 10 years. If he dies, do I have any rights to stay? Or if another tenant "rats me out" do I have any rights at all? It would be hard to prove that he lives here, because he lives upstate, and gets all his own mail there.He had to show up in court once a few years back to keep the charade going.

[HAJ77]

Legally, you have no right to that apartment either now or in the future. The fact that you have not been caught is pure luck and the day they find out about it count on a quick and nasty legal battle that leaves you without a home. As someone who lives in, and fought to keep, my rent control apartment, what you're doing is the reason LLs hate rent control. Personally, I hope they find out and if you lived in my building, I'd be happy to make that first phone call.

[HAJ77]

Yes, Andre my struggle did entitle me to my apartment simply because I waged a battle within the legal structure set forth by our government and abided by all rent control laws. I did not spend 10 years willfully violating the law and the terms of a private contract. Am I lucky to have this affordable apartment, of course I am, but I did not win a lottery, I followed the law, which fair or not clearly states the regulations for rent control tenants.

If as you state, you have lived in Manhattan for 25 years I have two questions. 1) Why are you not enjoying the benifits of rent stabilization? 2) It took you 25 years to figure out how expensive Manhattan is? We all know small towns in the MidWest would rent for less than a Manhattan apartment.

To put someone out of there home of 10 years, it would have to be their home. Since this is clearly an illegal situation, perpetuated by perjury in a court of law, it is not there legal home since under the law they do not have succession rights based on the information provided.

I ask you this Andre, do you support people willfully violating the law and blatantly lying to our legal system? Or are you selective in when it's acceptable to violate the law?

As for your coveting of your neighbors living space, I must ask if you have ever set foot in a rent control apartment. For the most part, they are not palaces gilded with gold, but more often neglected spaces that require constant legal duels for simple repairs and services. Perhaps you should visit in the dead of winter when they turned off the heat or in July when the outdated electrical system can't supply enough power to use an air conditioner.

Now then, unless you're too busy moving to Des Moines why not think about all this without injecting your jealous, self-fufilling thoughts about NYC living.

<small>[ October 09, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: HJ ]</small>

[vajran]

The comments submitted by HJ are interesting and very telling and while this person's position regarding "law"and proper procedure may be correct, it doesn't address the underlying issue that Andre was attempting to address. The fact of the matter is that rent control entitles the lucky few (and I agree that "lucky"is an apt description) to affordable housing in NY. The fact that some less fortunate are forced to try and circumvent the "law" in order to attain affordable housing is the issue here. Manhattan is truly an island of the lucky and the rich and at times I would concur with the former writer by adding the "foolish". Sometimes Des Moines does look pretty from here; at least there are places in the world where one doesn't have to wrestle in court for the right to affordable housing. It's easy to tell some one if you don't like it here, move. .HJ, your "battle"doesn't entitle you to your rent-control status. Your proximity to the original leaseholder does.Your holier than thou attitude is classic, smug rent control blood-sucker. And yes, I HAVE been inside several 8 & 9 room pre-war apartments whose inhabitants pay 500% below market. Instead of being angry at someone who "broke the law", you should just consider yourself lucky. But make no mistake: your landlord is no more thrilled by your tenancy and his losses (because you fought and won) than he might be with any of his other tenants. Landlords hate rent control because they are inequitable. Period. As far as tenants are concerned, they pit people against one another and perpetuate the "haves and have nots". I agree. You're lucky. Be grateful. And I'm sure that if you encounter problems with services provided by your LL, your rent is probably low enough for you to remedy your inconveniences at your own expense and STILL come out way ahead of your less-fortunate neighbors. To: the original poster: because you have lived there the past 10 years, it most certainly IS your home. Get a lawyer and be advised regarding certain illusory provisions that are in place for people in your situation. It's not fair that someone is profitting from your situation while you are less protected under the law.

<small>[ October 09, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: vajran ]</small>

[MikeW]

To the original poster:

Talk to a lawyer. It would sound like you have a very good illusory tenancy case. You could conceiveable get a court to terminate the prime tenant's lease force the LL to give you a regulated lease (under which terms, I'm not sure). Of course, your friend of the family prime tenant will not be happy to lose his nice little income, but that's his problem.

Keep in mind, from what I've heard, you have to do this before the LL finds out and starts his own non-primary residence eviction proceeding against the prime tenant and you. So don't waste time.

[venecin]

Thanks for everybody's reply, including the mean-spirited one. I am not proud of having taken advantage of the opportunity that was offered to me,but I had to to survive.If I had to retain a lawyer to hopefully legitimize my situation, how much would that cost, and how much would my rent go up? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Cranky Tenant]

It's hard to guess how much your rent might go up to. If the tenant has been there since the sixities, there's a reasonable chance he's been overcharging you for the past ten years.

[HAJ77]

If you're going to hire an attorney, figure on spending several thousand dollars with about $2000-3000 up front for the retainer. Given your situation, the deal offered by the Bar Association might be good, any suggested lawyer will give you a 30 minute consultation for less than $100 (not sure of the exact price)and that might give you enough information about your chances. Also, I agree with Cranky chances are you've been overcharged and might have a case with the prime tenant.

[Cranky Tenant]

Not entirely sure either but I think the NY Bar Association will get you a half hour consultation for $25 or $35.

Or you could just try one of the lawyers who advertise here.

[HAJ77]

I checked the website (https://www.abcny.org/lrs.html) and the cost is $25. Cranky is right for the most part the lawyers that advertise on here are great place to start.

[MikeW]

HJ,

If yo do talk to a lawyer, please post the lawyer's take on the situation. These things seem to come up pretty often, and, while I've heard about the legal 'theory', I'd be interested to see how one of these resolves.

[subcriminal]

I empathize with HJ.

I agree that Venecin needs to look into a case for illusory tenancy. If you are gonna get that apartment, do it by the book and get yourself a lawyer. The fact that the person subletting to you is doing so illegally makes my stomach turn.
I also think Andre needs to get a clue. "What afforded you those rights in the first place?" he asks.

Excuse me Andre, in my case, and most likely in HJ's and MANY other people as well: being the LEGAL tenant. The legal system is here for a reason folks, and I for one look down on people who try to cheat their way into rent control and rent stablization. I take even less kindly on the legal tenants renting out their units unlawfully.
Yes the housing situation is unfair, yes it is unaffordable, but people trying to leech their way into rent control/stabilization is only giving landlords more ammunuition to push for the elimiation of affordable units all togther. So who's perpetuating the housing food chain? Most certainly NOT those living in their apartments legally. Its the people who try to weasel their way in that fuels the conflict.

I've lived in my apartment since I was a child, and I had to fight my dirty landlord in court because he tried every dirty trick in the book to have me thrown out- and I'm here legally. Seeing people try to cheat the system left and right and then crying about how the law doesnt protect them is NOT what I call worthy of my sympathy. I think this is where HJ stands and where Andre need some insight.

I only sympathize for those people who are in their apartments legally. And Andre, I think you are in the wrong city for compassion. Deal with it.

Venecin: good luck with your illusory tenant case, that will be the only legal way to keep the place you call home. If you win your rent will go up a little bit, but you should still be rent stabilized. Your lawayer should be able to give you a more accurate figure.

[TenantNet]

We have policies on this board against flames, trolls and uninformed nonsensical crap about rent control that belone on Usenet, And Andre, you're getting close to crossing the line. It's not your opinion that's a problem, but that you blabber without having a clue on that which you speak. You're probably the type that, if given a chance, would claim that Rent Control causes homelessness and abandonment -- I suppose that explains why the East Side (with the highest concentration of rent control) has so many bombed out and abandoned buildings on Park Avenue. Rent Control is almost gone, being phased out since 1971. It's not a question of subsidy or fairness. It was a market-wide system applicable to everyone until until LLs started a lot of carving it up. They create a false 'market' rent and then tell stupid people (you) that it's your neighbor's fault for helping maintain the tax base and stable communities over decades while other cities did decline. So stop your nonsense. No more crap about unfairness. Keep it up and we'll send you back to Usenet.