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overnight guests?

Rights for non-regulated tenants

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Re: overnight guests?

Postby Phil Cohen » Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:32 pm

I'm not sure Phil on the Job is correct about separate metering. However, I do think that it would be a good idea to check the certificate of occupancy and determine if you are living in a legal apartment.

I believe the Department of Buildings website can get you that info. http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/bis.html

If the apartment isn't legal, if he is just renting out rooms illegally, you don't owe a penny in rent and all the rent you paid, and the fee you paid your broker, can and should be recovered.

A "guy" can't just chop a house into "apartments," even though "guys" often do that. Sounds as if your landlord is such a nut and moron that you may very well be living in such an illegal situation. If so, it may be unsafe as well, with inadequate fire exits.
Keep in mind that I am a tenant. Not a lawyer!!!!!
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby HardKnocks » Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:10 pm

Well Kas, you're just a "girl," so does that mean you're also excused from obeying the law? Cool! :D
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby mbrenner » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:11 am

This is a note to PHIL ON THE JOB -- there are apartment buildings and residential hotels where the tenants do not have their own electric meters. I live in one. At air conditioning time one of the city agencies sets the maximum monthly rate the landlord can charge for the 4 summer months. Some apartments have an extra monthly charge included in their leases re ac.

The landlord involved in this post sounds totally ridiculous. I'm glad I'm not his child...
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby Downtown » Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:25 am

From what you posted earlier...listed as walk up apt., probably legal.
Hopefully broker will follow up with talk to LL. Also, hopefully broker will waive fee if you decide to move.
Should know next time you have boyfriend over.
Once again, if you decide to move....get a written release from the LL. Clearly stating move out date and release from any future rent obligations. Probably won't be a problem.
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby BronxRenter » Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:36 am

Originally posted by iris:
This is a note to PHIL ON THE JOB -- there are apartment buildings and residential hotels where the tenants do not have their own electric meters. I live in one. At air conditioning time one of the city agencies sets the maximum monthly rate the landlord can charge for the 4 summer months. Some apartments have an extra monthly charge included in their leases re ac.

The landlord involved in this post sounds totally ridiculous. I'm glad I'm not his child...
Yes I am aware of this, just about every housing project I've been in is on one meter.

However this building sounds like a recent illegal conversion. If the building is a coverted 2 family meters are required. My guess is everything is illegal and the building is no where near up to code. Sounds like a job for 311.

It's amazing that you can get off the boat from Poland and start doing this in this city. Maybe you should send INS over there too.
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby Imp » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:31 am

Originally posted by Bleary-eyed tenant:
Well Kas, you're just a "girl," so does that mean you're also excused from obeying the law? Cool! :D
What law are you saying she's breaking?
I'm not a lawyer, but I will be someday, dammit!
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby HardKnocks » Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:01 pm

None, Imp. The broker is excusing the landlord's breaking of the law because "he's just a guy" and doesn't really know the law. So I was just making a joke that if the OP is "just a girl," does that necessarily mean she can break the law too?? Of course not!! The broker's excuse is pathetic. You can't just break the law whenever you want because you're just a guy or just a girl, etc. If you're a landlord, you certainly can't use ignorance of landlord-tenant law as an excuse for stomping on your tenants' rights.
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby Imp » Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:58 pm

I'm glad you cleared that up. I thought maybe you were being mean to her, but now I see you were not.
I'm not a lawyer, but I will be someday, dammit!
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby Phil Cohen » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 pm

Bleary, I think that "just a guy" probably meant "just an ordinary guy" and not a professional real estate person. That is why I think "Phil on the Job" has a point. This does have the odor of an illegal conversion, in which case the OP would have a significant case against the landlord AND the broker.
Keep in mind that I am a tenant. Not a lawyer!!!!!
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby HardKnocks » Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:33 pm

Apparently this happened with the last tenant as well. This is not the landlord's first-ever experience as a landlord. At this point he should be well aware that it is against the law to tell a tenant that she can't have anyone stay overnight.

The broker knew this was an issue with this landlord, and neither made the tenant aware of it nor effectively expressed to the landlord that this was against the law. And regardless of your "just a guy" status, as a landlord you can't simply make up your own laws and hold your tenants to them.

The landlord's ignorance of landlord-tenant law suggests that he did not practice due diligence before becoming a landlord, which also brings into question the legality of the apartment itself. One would expect that after his similar experience with the previous tenant (and who knows how many more?), he looked into said law to find out how to make his tenants legally stop having personal lives. And one would also expect that he would have found out that he was not allowed to make such demands.

I still think the OP should move out. It's still early enough to be able to use her previous landlord as a reference instead. Living here will be one unpleasant day (and night) after another if she stays.
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby super8 » Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:10 pm

Wow...
what a story.
i was just passing by and I read the thread...
Anything new kas?
I hope all has been resolved well!
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby kas » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:29 pm

Without intending to reopen this discussion, the situation has been resolved, the broker had a conversation with the landlord and explained to him that besides the fact that I'll be a good and respectful tenant who pays rent on time, it is also illegal for him to try to prevent guests. The landlord has not mentioned it since then.

A lot can happen in a year, so hopefully he will choose to renew my lease when it is up.
Thanks for your concern and everyone's help!
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby anonymous2020 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:04 am

Correction: Tl,dr: The apparent and plain meaning of Real Property (RPP) Section 235-F is that a single-tenant may have guests (loosely defined) BUT plural-tenants are restricted on a zero-sum basis meaning one tenant "out" on roommate/guest "in". See, "the total number of tenants and occupants, excluding occupants' dependent children, does not exceed the number of tenants specified in the current lease or rental agreement". Put even simpler, you are apparently afforded one roommate/guest per out-of-house tenant.

DISCLAIMER: This is not legal advice as I am not currently a lawyer.

(a) https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/RPP/235-F
"3. Any lease or rental agreement for residential premises entered into by one tenant shall be construed to permit occupancy by the tenant, immediate family of the tenant, one additional occupant, and dependent children of the occupant provided that the tenant or the tenant's spouse occupies the premises as his primary residence.

4. Any lease or rental agreement for residential premises entered into by two or more tenants shall be construed to permit occupancy by tenants, immediate family of tenants, occupants and dependent children of occupants; provided that the total number of tenants and occupants, excluding occupants' dependent children, does not exceed the number of tenants specified in the current lease or rental agreement, and that at least one tenant or a tenants' spouse occupies the premises as his primary residence."

(b) https://hcr.ny.gov/leases#adding-person ... subletting
"When only one tenant is named on a lease, the tenant has the right to take in a roommate and the roommate's dependent children. When two or more tenants are named on the lease, the number of tenants and roommates cannot exceed the number of tenants named in the lease."

or (c) https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/p ... rights.pdf "apartment sharing"
"When the lease names only one tenant, that tenant may share the
apartment with immediate family, one additional occupant and the
occupant’s dependent children, provided that the tenant or the tenant’s
spouse occupies the premises as their primary residence. When the lease
names more than one tenant, these tenants may share their apartment
with immediate family, and, if one of the tenants named in the lease
moves out, that tenant may be replaced with another occupant and the
dependent children of the occupant."
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Re: overnight guests?

Postby TenantNet » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:30 am

I won't go into the analysis here, but Anonymous2020, you are responding to a sixteen year-old post from 2004. I think you meant the NYS Real Property Law (known as "RPL" not "RPP"). Many provisions of the RPL have been modified over the years, so what might have been true in 2004 may not necessarily be true in 2020, or even a few years from now.

That provision has to do with roommates, not necessarily overnight guests.

The original post had to do with a LL objecting to the poster's boyfriend staying over s few times a week. Is that an occasional overnight guest, or a roommate who has moved in? I would think if the BF continued to maintain his own residence and does not move a lot of his possessions into the GF's apartment (other than maybe a change of clothes), then that's a guest and perfectly allowable.

OTOH, if the tenant has 3-4 family members stop in for several days over the holidays, they are also just guests, even if it annoys the LL.

But when a "guest" stays for a long time, perhaps 30 days, then he/she/they might be considered roommates. I've seem various interpretations of this law and reasoned arguments on both sides of the issue. In such situations, there is often no absolute; it depends on the facts. The one-tenant and one-roommate rule doesn't always hold, especially when there are 3-4 bedrooms and the unit is clearly intended for multiple persons.
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