LL didn't correct situations that lead to basement flooding, which has resulted in a mold problem. Upon receiving written notice that we are presenting with health symptoms typical to mold exposure, LL sent a construction guy. He advised me that he will do rubbish removal & then clean walls & floors. I'm concerned that this is not sufficient. The back & front cellar doors are damaged and rain is continues to enter basement.
An independent co. would chrg about $500. to take air samples & test HVAC, LL won't pay this & I can't afford it.
An iron works co. gave me an estimate of $2,000 to repair cellar doors so that they seal. LL no response.
Can I with hold rent until it's resolved properly? Can I have it corrected & deduct from rent? Is LL liable for any personal items that have been ruined? Can I bill LL for storage facility & movers so the contractor can clean walls & floor? I have no health insurance, can I bill LL for medical expenses if I test positive for toxic mold exposure?
I've called 311 & they will only take action in the case that I file formal complaint. I will reserve that option for last resort.
MOLD
Moderator: TenantNet
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• Page 1 of 1
by concord » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:31 am
Firstly, are you living in a basement/cellar?
Secondly, landlords are generally not liable for damage to your personal property. However, if you officially inform a landlord of a problem and the landlord refuses to correct it and consequently you should suffer damages from that recurring problem then perhaps a degree of liability can be attributed to the landlord for consequent damages that you may incur.
I’m not sure what the law is here but, if you inform the landlord that there is a mold problem and also that you are showing symptoms and he refuses to correct the problem then it would stand to reason that the landlord should incur some degree of liability here and a piece of your medical expenses. On the other hand, the law may simply state that you knew that there was a mold problem and you decided to stay there anyway (and so you chose to become sick). That sounds cold but I don’t know the law here.
Thirdly, I’ll share a story with you. There was a heating system problem in my apartment a while back and I informed the landlord in writing (by certified mail) that I was worried that this system could fail at any moment and that the sudden pressure release could possibly cause me bodily injury and furthermore financial damages. I explained in this letter that, if the landlord refused to fix this problem and that if I should indeed suffer any of the consequences, just described, that I would find the landlord liable for such damages due to his failure to act to correct the problem.
Within a week, a heating systems guy arrived and fixed the problem. It was an expense of a few hundred dollars that my landlord certainly did not wish to incur. Well aint that a f~%*ing shame? My landlord is the cheapest bastard in the world.
Secondly, landlords are generally not liable for damage to your personal property. However, if you officially inform a landlord of a problem and the landlord refuses to correct it and consequently you should suffer damages from that recurring problem then perhaps a degree of liability can be attributed to the landlord for consequent damages that you may incur.
I’m not sure what the law is here but, if you inform the landlord that there is a mold problem and also that you are showing symptoms and he refuses to correct the problem then it would stand to reason that the landlord should incur some degree of liability here and a piece of your medical expenses. On the other hand, the law may simply state that you knew that there was a mold problem and you decided to stay there anyway (and so you chose to become sick). That sounds cold but I don’t know the law here.
Thirdly, I’ll share a story with you. There was a heating system problem in my apartment a while back and I informed the landlord in writing (by certified mail) that I was worried that this system could fail at any moment and that the sudden pressure release could possibly cause me bodily injury and furthermore financial damages. I explained in this letter that, if the landlord refused to fix this problem and that if I should indeed suffer any of the consequences, just described, that I would find the landlord liable for such damages due to his failure to act to correct the problem.
Within a week, a heating systems guy arrived and fixed the problem. It was an expense of a few hundred dollars that my landlord certainly did not wish to incur. Well aint that a f~%*ing shame? My landlord is the cheapest bastard in the world.
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by bkjones » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:10 am
I wonder if we have the same LL! Thanks for your reply.
I do not live in the basement, but it's where I do laundry & storage. There is central air system so the unit breathes the basement air and draws it thru the duct work. My ex was the first to have symptoms, he had a workshop in the basement. He was sick for 9 months and 3 different dr. couldn't find a diagnosis. He moved out in Feb and is now free of symptoms, meanwhile my daughter & I are getting sicker.
Maybe I should do certified mail, I've emailed mine. So there is a record of the conversation. I did inform her that we are all exhibiting health symptoms that I believe to be caused by the mold. She doesn't seem to be concerned about it.I don't answer her phone calls anymore so that she's forced to communicate thru phone text or email because I need a record of everything said.
Your comments make sense. I can imagine that I could be considered liable for staying. But I have no savings. It cost me $12,000. to move in here and I don't have that kind of money at this point. I'm trapped. My only way out is to quit paying and use the $ for my next place but the potential ramifications of that strategy are worrisome. Rather than attempting to be reimbursed I would more use it as justification for not paying.
I do not live in the basement, but it's where I do laundry & storage. There is central air system so the unit breathes the basement air and draws it thru the duct work. My ex was the first to have symptoms, he had a workshop in the basement. He was sick for 9 months and 3 different dr. couldn't find a diagnosis. He moved out in Feb and is now free of symptoms, meanwhile my daughter & I are getting sicker.
Maybe I should do certified mail, I've emailed mine. So there is a record of the conversation. I did inform her that we are all exhibiting health symptoms that I believe to be caused by the mold. She doesn't seem to be concerned about it.I don't answer her phone calls anymore so that she's forced to communicate thru phone text or email because I need a record of everything said.
Your comments make sense. I can imagine that I could be considered liable for staying. But I have no savings. It cost me $12,000. to move in here and I don't have that kind of money at this point. I'm trapped. My only way out is to quit paying and use the $ for my next place but the potential ramifications of that strategy are worrisome. Rather than attempting to be reimbursed I would more use it as justification for not paying.
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by concord » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:55 am
I believe that you also constantly face the threat of being evicted with just thirty days notice if you don’t have a lease. Or, your land lord can threaten to simply not renew when your lease expires. Being non-regulated really sucks.
However, if your landlord should threaten to evict you at some point while you have a complaint against him for such a matter, there may be some legal protection for you against eviction. I am thinking as a regulated tenant here and hoping that some protection is afforded to you.
(A)
By the way, why did it cost you $12K to move in; would it cost you $12K to move into another apartment?
(B)
Why are you reluctant to file a complaint through 311?
(C)
Does your lease specify that you shall have access to the basement?
If you do not need the air being drawn from the basement to your apartment then can you simply seal off the vents in your apartment so that no air shall enter your apartment? (I am assuming that this is not free air-conditioning.) You can achieve this by removing the grill from the vent, then placing a well-fitting piece of plywood behind the grill and then duct-taping the edges. Then just screw the grill back into place on top of the plywood.
CAUTION: Be sure to only block the air from entering into your apartment. Do not prevent the air from traveling further and eventually to the outside. The air must escape the house/building. Otherwise you can make the problem even more hazardous.
Maybe you can place a filter on top of the intake valve of the basement unit that sucks in the air for further distribution. Such filter may "catch" the mold. Maybe there is no such thing. Just brainstorming.
Replacing the basement door is probably not a good idea because it will eventually corrode again. Placing a slanted shell made of plywood on sidewalk level above the cellar entrance is a better and cheaper solution if possible. I'm sure that you have seen these before.
It doesn’t help you that doctors were unable to attribute your ex’ symptoms to the mold. It may be a coincidence that his symptoms faded when he left your location. (That is what your landlord’s attorney would say anyway.)
This is a shot in the dark but, there may be a free or low cost service provided by the city or state to test your space for mold or even asbestos if you have a low income. A personal injury attorney (who takes cases on a contingency basis) may even take interest in it – his appointed doctors may discover that your ailment are symptomatic of mold inhalation.
However, if your landlord should threaten to evict you at some point while you have a complaint against him for such a matter, there may be some legal protection for you against eviction. I am thinking as a regulated tenant here and hoping that some protection is afforded to you.
(A)
By the way, why did it cost you $12K to move in; would it cost you $12K to move into another apartment?
(B)
Why are you reluctant to file a complaint through 311?
(C)
Does your lease specify that you shall have access to the basement?
If you do not need the air being drawn from the basement to your apartment then can you simply seal off the vents in your apartment so that no air shall enter your apartment? (I am assuming that this is not free air-conditioning.) You can achieve this by removing the grill from the vent, then placing a well-fitting piece of plywood behind the grill and then duct-taping the edges. Then just screw the grill back into place on top of the plywood.
CAUTION: Be sure to only block the air from entering into your apartment. Do not prevent the air from traveling further and eventually to the outside. The air must escape the house/building. Otherwise you can make the problem even more hazardous.
Maybe you can place a filter on top of the intake valve of the basement unit that sucks in the air for further distribution. Such filter may "catch" the mold. Maybe there is no such thing. Just brainstorming.
Replacing the basement door is probably not a good idea because it will eventually corrode again. Placing a slanted shell made of plywood on sidewalk level above the cellar entrance is a better and cheaper solution if possible. I'm sure that you have seen these before.
It doesn’t help you that doctors were unable to attribute your ex’ symptoms to the mold. It may be a coincidence that his symptoms faded when he left your location. (That is what your landlord’s attorney would say anyway.)
This is a shot in the dark but, there may be a free or low cost service provided by the city or state to test your space for mold or even asbestos if you have a low income. A personal injury attorney (who takes cases on a contingency basis) may even take interest in it – his appointed doctors may discover that your ailment are symptomatic of mold inhalation.
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by bkjones » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:13 am
hi. Thanks for your thoughts.
A.
12G's to move in is pretty normal in the city, no? 1st & last month rent, 2 deposits (one for pets), broker's fee. I can not afford this expense at this point so I am looking exclusively at no fee apts & hope to find something that will take 1 month's deposit.
B.
I prefer to call 311 only as a last resort. In spite of all I still feel sympathetic towards her that she's in over her head and probably doesn't intend to be evil, just negligent & lazy. Given the amt. of violations I think it's possible she could end up losing the bldg if the city offices got invovled. Plenty of problems will descend once I get the city on it, my nerves aren't up to taking that responsiblity. Also, I will use the excuse that I am originally from North Dakota and we don't have much fight instinct on the prarie. And lastly because in 2007 I missed 3 months payments, recently paid 2 but still owe her 1. I feel embarrassed & ashamed that my account is not to date. She could have evicted me for the arrears that are 2 yrs old. She gave me a pass, & I am reluctant to burn her in return.
However, if she serves me legal notice, I will call 311 & let the games begin.
c.
I can't remember what the lease says about basement, but the washer dryer is there so it's implied that I would have access. LL never gave me the signed lease so I guess it's like I don't have one. The broker didn't keep a copy.
Central Air is included in my rent. But last summer it was broken for 4 months, and this year I'm afraid it would spread mold if I use it. The vents are on the wall, I could use duck tape & plastic. But I'm still down there doing laundry & now sorting thru my stored items in prep to move. The upstairs tenants did block the vents, perhaps that makes it worse?
Filter for unit is a good idea, but if mold has already infliterated the duct work or the unit than it's little use. I chg the filter at work every 3 wks, this one has never been changed cuz she won't buy them. That's the reason the unit broke last yr. Another example of penny wise pound foolish.
I have covered the cellar doors with a heavy plastic and it has reduced the amt of rain. I do think the doors should be replaced. If she had kept them painted and protected, they wouldn't have rusted away.
311 will send mold inspectors & bill LL. But only in the case that I file formal complaints. I'll keep looking, but all other specialists are over $500. & I will not spend out of my pocket for that. I'm concentrating on getting out of this place rather than fight it out here.
My bf was tested for high blood pressure, got MRI, tested for diabetes, M.S., etc. I guess no one realized it could have been toxic mold. I only realized last wk when I researched the symptoms and realized that we 3 all have different symptoms which could all be attributed to the mold. My kid has a dry persistant cough in the home, but clears up when out. In the a.m. I have sore throat & nose bleeds. For 2 months my upper lungs ache and feel like there is a brick on them, and my inner ears itch like crazy. All may be due to mold. my daughter & I acquired the symptoms this spring when it got wet & warm & the heat was no longer on to dry the basement. My bf had a workshop in basement so I believe that's why he was sick first. I am quite sure it is the mold, cuz the more time I've spent in basement organizing & cleaning, the worse my symptoms are. I don't currently have insurance. I need money to move so I can't seek medical help. Best I just get out & I think we'll be ok.
Concord, I do appreciate your thoughtful suggestions. In fact I'm going to certify mail LL a letter similar to the one you did.
My objective isn't so much how to fix the problem, but rather what can happen now that I'm not paying. Hope to move by Aug 1. Would go sooner, but I'm still pulling funds together.
A.
12G's to move in is pretty normal in the city, no? 1st & last month rent, 2 deposits (one for pets), broker's fee. I can not afford this expense at this point so I am looking exclusively at no fee apts & hope to find something that will take 1 month's deposit.
B.
I prefer to call 311 only as a last resort. In spite of all I still feel sympathetic towards her that she's in over her head and probably doesn't intend to be evil, just negligent & lazy. Given the amt. of violations I think it's possible she could end up losing the bldg if the city offices got invovled. Plenty of problems will descend once I get the city on it, my nerves aren't up to taking that responsiblity. Also, I will use the excuse that I am originally from North Dakota and we don't have much fight instinct on the prarie. And lastly because in 2007 I missed 3 months payments, recently paid 2 but still owe her 1. I feel embarrassed & ashamed that my account is not to date. She could have evicted me for the arrears that are 2 yrs old. She gave me a pass, & I am reluctant to burn her in return.
However, if she serves me legal notice, I will call 311 & let the games begin.
c.
I can't remember what the lease says about basement, but the washer dryer is there so it's implied that I would have access. LL never gave me the signed lease so I guess it's like I don't have one. The broker didn't keep a copy.
Central Air is included in my rent. But last summer it was broken for 4 months, and this year I'm afraid it would spread mold if I use it. The vents are on the wall, I could use duck tape & plastic. But I'm still down there doing laundry & now sorting thru my stored items in prep to move. The upstairs tenants did block the vents, perhaps that makes it worse?
Filter for unit is a good idea, but if mold has already infliterated the duct work or the unit than it's little use. I chg the filter at work every 3 wks, this one has never been changed cuz she won't buy them. That's the reason the unit broke last yr. Another example of penny wise pound foolish.
I have covered the cellar doors with a heavy plastic and it has reduced the amt of rain. I do think the doors should be replaced. If she had kept them painted and protected, they wouldn't have rusted away.
311 will send mold inspectors & bill LL. But only in the case that I file formal complaints. I'll keep looking, but all other specialists are over $500. & I will not spend out of my pocket for that. I'm concentrating on getting out of this place rather than fight it out here.
My bf was tested for high blood pressure, got MRI, tested for diabetes, M.S., etc. I guess no one realized it could have been toxic mold. I only realized last wk when I researched the symptoms and realized that we 3 all have different symptoms which could all be attributed to the mold. My kid has a dry persistant cough in the home, but clears up when out. In the a.m. I have sore throat & nose bleeds. For 2 months my upper lungs ache and feel like there is a brick on them, and my inner ears itch like crazy. All may be due to mold. my daughter & I acquired the symptoms this spring when it got wet & warm & the heat was no longer on to dry the basement. My bf had a workshop in basement so I believe that's why he was sick first. I am quite sure it is the mold, cuz the more time I've spent in basement organizing & cleaning, the worse my symptoms are. I don't currently have insurance. I need money to move so I can't seek medical help. Best I just get out & I think we'll be ok.
Concord, I do appreciate your thoughtful suggestions. In fact I'm going to certify mail LL a letter similar to the one you did.
My objective isn't so much how to fix the problem, but rather what can happen now that I'm not paying. Hope to move by Aug 1. Would go sooner, but I'm still pulling funds together.
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by concord » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:57 pm
TWELVE THOUSAND
I didn’t know that you lived in an expensive Manhattan apartment – yes that explains it.
LANDLORD SHOULD BE ASHAMED – NOT YOU
I wouldn’t feel ashamed about being behind on my rent if my landlord (LL) was chronic about not resolving violations. On the contrary, if my LL's negligence were pushing mold into my lungs I would be furious.
NO LEASE, NO LUXURIES
If you do not have (and you can not reproduce) a copy of your lease then you are not officially entitled to central air or even laundry facility usage because you have no document attesting to such.
UPSTAIRS TENANT
If the upstairs tenant has blocked the vent to their apartment only but the air can still flow past their apartment and continue through the vent and up to the roof (or where ever it exits the building) then that tenant is not contributing to the problem.
MOLD REMOVAL – BILLING THE LANDLORD
It’s good to know that 311 has informed you that they will send inspectors for the mold problem at your request and also that [if I have understood you well] they will make repairs if necessary and just bill the LL. It’s good to know that such an option exists for non-regulated apartments. (Even if you personally are not capitalizing on it.)
BOILER – BILLING THE LANDLORD
HPD will do the same by replacing or repairing a boiler if the LL does not restore heat or hot water and then they will bill the LL. Of course there is plentiful bureaucracy to go through first.
WAR
If you intend to continue living in NYC you had better get used to contention. It’s part of life here. When people sense that you are not willing to fight they will step all over you. Just like riding a horse for the first time – if it senses that you are not dominant it will try to ignore your commands.
I didn’t know that you lived in an expensive Manhattan apartment – yes that explains it.
LANDLORD SHOULD BE ASHAMED – NOT YOU
I wouldn’t feel ashamed about being behind on my rent if my landlord (LL) was chronic about not resolving violations. On the contrary, if my LL's negligence were pushing mold into my lungs I would be furious.
NO LEASE, NO LUXURIES
If you do not have (and you can not reproduce) a copy of your lease then you are not officially entitled to central air or even laundry facility usage because you have no document attesting to such.
UPSTAIRS TENANT
If the upstairs tenant has blocked the vent to their apartment only but the air can still flow past their apartment and continue through the vent and up to the roof (or where ever it exits the building) then that tenant is not contributing to the problem.
MOLD REMOVAL – BILLING THE LANDLORD
It’s good to know that 311 has informed you that they will send inspectors for the mold problem at your request and also that [if I have understood you well] they will make repairs if necessary and just bill the LL. It’s good to know that such an option exists for non-regulated apartments. (Even if you personally are not capitalizing on it.)
BOILER – BILLING THE LANDLORD
HPD will do the same by replacing or repairing a boiler if the LL does not restore heat or hot water and then they will bill the LL. Of course there is plentiful bureaucracy to go through first.
WAR
If you intend to continue living in NYC you had better get used to contention. It’s part of life here. When people sense that you are not willing to fight they will step all over you. Just like riding a horse for the first time – if it senses that you are not dominant it will try to ignore your commands.
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by bkjones » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:19 am
ok. good pep talk. I'll write the certified letter today.
boiler wasn't broken, btw, she didnt pay the gas bill.
Now that I better understand my rights and some of the layers of problems here, I am not going to worry about my rent standing. I am mad. I've been in NYC 20 yrs & I've learned fighting battles over principle are expensive & time consuming and seldom worthwhile.
But it does look like this is going to be war, I'm saddling up and I'm ok for the ride if I have to!
It's Brooklyn, not Manhattan. In fact I'm in a not very good neighborhood on top of it. Because this place in a better location would be over 3 thou a month. So I've paid 1/4 of her full mortgage so I can live in a ghetto in these conditions! Makes me angry.
- if only she took care of it. It's got mold, water, termites & LL doesn't mind.
I'm looking for a new place. Nothing is nearly as spacious or beautiful as this so it's a bitter pill. Forced to leave this beautiful apt cuz LL can't maintain properly. Sad. Wish it were mine. I'd give it the love & care it needs.
boiler wasn't broken, btw, she didnt pay the gas bill.
Now that I better understand my rights and some of the layers of problems here, I am not going to worry about my rent standing. I am mad. I've been in NYC 20 yrs & I've learned fighting battles over principle are expensive & time consuming and seldom worthwhile.
But it does look like this is going to be war, I'm saddling up and I'm ok for the ride if I have to!
It's Brooklyn, not Manhattan. In fact I'm in a not very good neighborhood on top of it. Because this place in a better location would be over 3 thou a month. So I've paid 1/4 of her full mortgage so I can live in a ghetto in these conditions! Makes me angry.
- if only she took care of it. It's got mold, water, termites & LL doesn't mind.
I'm looking for a new place. Nothing is nearly as spacious or beautiful as this so it's a bitter pill. Forced to leave this beautiful apt cuz LL can't maintain properly. Sad. Wish it were mine. I'd give it the love & care it needs.
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by bkjones » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:27 am
Results are in from my home mold test kit. Air sample from area around HVAC is positive for 3 types of mold. One type is a pesty allergen and 2 can cause more serious illness such as emphazyma, edema, and bronchial illnessness. Ykes. Now I have my proof!
Wrote LL and will send certified today. Stated that I will not pay to live in these conditions. If 10 issues, incl. mold, are not corrected in reasonable time, I will give 30 day notice & vacate.
LL may just hope I find something soon so she can find unsuspecting tenant and be rid of me. I am going to take my time looking & get a leg up financially. If LL serves me notice I will call 311 & begin to battle.
Wrote LL and will send certified today. Stated that I will not pay to live in these conditions. If 10 issues, incl. mold, are not corrected in reasonable time, I will give 30 day notice & vacate.
LL may just hope I find something soon so she can find unsuspecting tenant and be rid of me. I am going to take my time looking & get a leg up financially. If LL serves me notice I will call 311 & begin to battle.
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by concord » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:55 pm
Stating explicitly that you shall withhold rent means that you are breaching your lease agreement to pay rent.
While it is frustrating that your LL is a negligent asshole who has no consideration for your health this still doesn’t afford you the right to withhold rent payments. The proper course of action is to file a complaint about bad conditions and to try to get them resolved. The law protects the LL’s rights also.
If you are willing to vacate quickly anyway then why don’t you just have the City correct the mold problem at the landlord’s expense? You’re in a battle anyway. Once that letter goes out, you have declared war – you must know that. So, go onto the offensive. Forget about a defensive approach. You are dealing with an asshole and the only way to get any resolve from that type of human is by being aggressive – only equivalent assholism prompts such person to respond. Playing nice doesn’t work.
If this goes to court you could actually end up owing rent regardless of the poor condition (of mold and other). But if the LL knows that you called the City you shall now have leverage against the LL who shall now be more willing to accommodate your demands because you went onto the offensive and you no longer seem as vulnerable and easy to manipulate.
Here is how your LL shall interpret your willingness to resolve this nicely: “She’s not that serious; I’ll just ignore this and not fix anything – she’ll keep paying me the rent because she doesn’t even have the courage to make an official complaint about me; she’s a pushover. I’m not taking her seriously.”
I don’t mean to be rude but that is how it is. Welcome to our fine city.
(Apologies to Tenantnet for the language; it just seemed fitting here.)
While it is frustrating that your LL is a negligent asshole who has no consideration for your health this still doesn’t afford you the right to withhold rent payments. The proper course of action is to file a complaint about bad conditions and to try to get them resolved. The law protects the LL’s rights also.
If you are willing to vacate quickly anyway then why don’t you just have the City correct the mold problem at the landlord’s expense? You’re in a battle anyway. Once that letter goes out, you have declared war – you must know that. So, go onto the offensive. Forget about a defensive approach. You are dealing with an asshole and the only way to get any resolve from that type of human is by being aggressive – only equivalent assholism prompts such person to respond. Playing nice doesn’t work.
If this goes to court you could actually end up owing rent regardless of the poor condition (of mold and other). But if the LL knows that you called the City you shall now have leverage against the LL who shall now be more willing to accommodate your demands because you went onto the offensive and you no longer seem as vulnerable and easy to manipulate.
Here is how your LL shall interpret your willingness to resolve this nicely: “She’s not that serious; I’ll just ignore this and not fix anything – she’ll keep paying me the rent because she doesn’t even have the courage to make an official complaint about me; she’s a pushover. I’m not taking her seriously.”
I don’t mean to be rude but that is how it is. Welcome to our fine city.
(Apologies to Tenantnet for the language; it just seemed fitting here.)
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by bkjones » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:58 am
o oh, good I didn't mail yet. I wrote LL that I'm putting rent money into a different account to pay when & if 9 situations are corrected, incl. the mold. I also included excerpts of the law that covers all 9 issues. I also told LL in letter that I am reluctant to call 311 because I am aware of some problems it may cause her. I gave her a reasonable
time frame to correct or I will have to vacate with 30 day notice.
So you think I need to edit the letter? My objective is to stay without paying until I find something, be that 1 month or 8 months. I hoped she would either remedy problems (unlikely) or wait for my 30 day notice, not bug me for rent so that I am not provoked to call 311.
Some one else advised me that if I send the letter, then she serves me 30 day notice or begins eviction it would appear to judge that she retaliated agaisnt my request for repairs. If I wait until she makes first legal move, it would appear that I demand repairs only because LL wants me out. Seemed like good logic. But your comments have me wondering what to do next.
Did I also explain that there is no c of o and that it was converted from single family to 3 units without permits or inspection? Doesn't this make it illegal to collect rent? That's what I had understood, but the laws have so many variables that I'm not certain that I understand clearly.
I've spent 3 wks looking at apt. and it's down right depressing. Lots of super ugly places. NOTHING so far that I would call home.
Your responses are greatly appreciated concord! Thanks much
time frame to correct or I will have to vacate with 30 day notice.
So you think I need to edit the letter? My objective is to stay without paying until I find something, be that 1 month or 8 months. I hoped she would either remedy problems (unlikely) or wait for my 30 day notice, not bug me for rent so that I am not provoked to call 311.
Some one else advised me that if I send the letter, then she serves me 30 day notice or begins eviction it would appear to judge that she retaliated agaisnt my request for repairs. If I wait until she makes first legal move, it would appear that I demand repairs only because LL wants me out. Seemed like good logic. But your comments have me wondering what to do next.
Did I also explain that there is no c of o and that it was converted from single family to 3 units without permits or inspection? Doesn't this make it illegal to collect rent? That's what I had understood, but the laws have so many variables that I'm not certain that I understand clearly.
I've spent 3 wks looking at apt. and it's down right depressing. Lots of super ugly places. NOTHING so far that I would call home.
Your responses are greatly appreciated concord! Thanks much
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by concord » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:13 pm
RETALIATION
I am not sure if you have any benefit from demonstrating to a judge that the catalyst for your LL’s decision to evict you is the motive of retaliation for your complaint. That is, it may be the case that, your LL can evict you with a 30-day notice for any reason whatsoever and without justification (if you have no lease). I really do not know the answer to the question. Maybe somebody else on the forum does.
(While it would seem ethically proper for a judge to utter “the landlord seeks to evict the tenant out of retaliation and I’m just not going to allow such terrible behavior by the landlord” there may actually not be any legal standing for a judge to act as such. I really don’t know how much discretion a judge has under such circumstance.)
But if you understand that the retaliation factor helps you then that is all the more reason to get the City to do the mold clean-up at the LL’s expense.
IILEGAL CONVERSION - COLLECTING RENT IN A THREE-FAMILY
There is a massive posting in this forum that discusses the issue of if a LL is entitled to a rental from an illegally converted unit inside a three-family home. I read the entire thing and I was unable to form a clear opinion. This is the link:
http://tenant.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4954
YOUR LETTER
I would get the answer to the retaliation dilemma above before sending the letter. (Just so that you will know how much flexibility you have.)
Regardless, the letter should be very clear about describing the poor conditions that need to be corrected in the event that you should need to present this letter (along with the certified USPS receipt as proof of mailing) inside a courtroom in the future. At some point you may also need to take photo’s. It couldn't hurt to do this now at your leisure if you have a digital camera and if it will not be costing you anything to do so.
Also in your letter, leave out any overbearing emotions that may sound threatening. You don’t want to give the LL the opportunity to say that you threatened to harm him/her. Emotional expression of despair is one thing; emotional expression of anger is another.
I am not sure if you have any benefit from demonstrating to a judge that the catalyst for your LL’s decision to evict you is the motive of retaliation for your complaint. That is, it may be the case that, your LL can evict you with a 30-day notice for any reason whatsoever and without justification (if you have no lease). I really do not know the answer to the question. Maybe somebody else on the forum does.
(While it would seem ethically proper for a judge to utter “the landlord seeks to evict the tenant out of retaliation and I’m just not going to allow such terrible behavior by the landlord” there may actually not be any legal standing for a judge to act as such. I really don’t know how much discretion a judge has under such circumstance.)
But if you understand that the retaliation factor helps you then that is all the more reason to get the City to do the mold clean-up at the LL’s expense.
IILEGAL CONVERSION - COLLECTING RENT IN A THREE-FAMILY
There is a massive posting in this forum that discusses the issue of if a LL is entitled to a rental from an illegally converted unit inside a three-family home. I read the entire thing and I was unable to form a clear opinion. This is the link:
http://tenant.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4954
YOUR LETTER
I would get the answer to the retaliation dilemma above before sending the letter. (Just so that you will know how much flexibility you have.)
Regardless, the letter should be very clear about describing the poor conditions that need to be corrected in the event that you should need to present this letter (along with the certified USPS receipt as proof of mailing) inside a courtroom in the future. At some point you may also need to take photo’s. It couldn't hurt to do this now at your leisure if you have a digital camera and if it will not be costing you anything to do so.
Also in your letter, leave out any overbearing emotions that may sound threatening. You don’t want to give the LL the opportunity to say that you threatened to harm him/her. Emotional expression of despair is one thing; emotional expression of anger is another.
- concord
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 3:40 pm
by bkjones » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:24 pm
I had read thru that illegal conversion thread and all the confusing info on lack of c of o and I can't decide what the law is in this circumstance either.
Thanks again for your time & comments.
The friend that suggested this has been to LL/tenant court a few times so I thought she has at least some experience with how it may play out. Her advice was if I called 311 or sent the certified letter, any eviction filing or 30 day notice would be seen as retaliation for my requests to repair & would help me. She also said I should call 311. Seems that's the overwhelming general concensus.
The letter is not emotional. I advised that rent would be in an acct. until if & when 9 issues were corrected. I then list the 9 issues & included the dates I originally asked her to fix. Then I incl. excerpts of NY law that pertains to the 9 issues. I conclude by stating that if these matters aren't corrected that I will give 30 day notice. I attached the mold test results, and a lot of photographs that support my top 3 concerns. The most important parts are mold remediation, repair doors - install deadbolt locks (neither entrance door is currently secure), & clean up the human feces which continues to collect on the sun porch roof outside my living room window. The apt is not safe, sanitary, or healthy due to her arrogance / negligence. It's a breach of the contract on her part and I really don't think I should have to pay to live like this. I should have a door that locks and I should not have a neighbor crapping on my balcony while she refuses to clean it up or talk to him. In fact that is the one part above all else that is pushing me to the brink. I hate to imagine what else this guy is capable of after this
ing lewd behaviour, and it makes it even more concerning that my doors don't lock. Unacceptable. Some nerve to expect me to pay to live like this!
Meanwhile, I've seen so many horrible apts that I can't imagine living in. If I call 311 or send the letter I've set in motion something I can't undo and hate to think I may run out of time and be forced to take one of these ugly apartments. Hallways are not living rooms, Kitchens aren't living rooms. Dining rooms aren't bedrooms. Large closets are not bedrooms.It's crazy out there! Who rents these places!? Dang.
Thanks again for your time & comments.
The friend that suggested this has been to LL/tenant court a few times so I thought she has at least some experience with how it may play out. Her advice was if I called 311 or sent the certified letter, any eviction filing or 30 day notice would be seen as retaliation for my requests to repair & would help me. She also said I should call 311. Seems that's the overwhelming general concensus.
The letter is not emotional. I advised that rent would be in an acct. until if & when 9 issues were corrected. I then list the 9 issues & included the dates I originally asked her to fix. Then I incl. excerpts of NY law that pertains to the 9 issues. I conclude by stating that if these matters aren't corrected that I will give 30 day notice. I attached the mold test results, and a lot of photographs that support my top 3 concerns. The most important parts are mold remediation, repair doors - install deadbolt locks (neither entrance door is currently secure), & clean up the human feces which continues to collect on the sun porch roof outside my living room window. The apt is not safe, sanitary, or healthy due to her arrogance / negligence. It's a breach of the contract on her part and I really don't think I should have to pay to live like this. I should have a door that locks and I should not have a neighbor crapping on my balcony while she refuses to clean it up or talk to him. In fact that is the one part above all else that is pushing me to the brink. I hate to imagine what else this guy is capable of after this
ing lewd behaviour, and it makes it even more concerning that my doors don't lock. Unacceptable. Some nerve to expect me to pay to live like this!
Meanwhile, I've seen so many horrible apts that I can't imagine living in. If I call 311 or send the letter I've set in motion something I can't undo and hate to think I may run out of time and be forced to take one of these ugly apartments. Hallways are not living rooms, Kitchens aren't living rooms. Dining rooms aren't bedrooms. Large closets are not bedrooms.It's crazy out there! Who rents these places!? Dang.
- bkjones
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:07 am
- Location: Bklyn
by bkjones » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:48 pm
HEN A ONE-FAMILY OR TWO-FAMILY HOME IS CONVERTED TO A BUILDING WITH THREE OR MORE UNITS:
Excerpt from the illegal conversion info:
Rent: A landlord cannot collect rent from any tenants where a one-family dwelling has been illegally converted into a building with three or more dwelling units. In such case, neither the tenants in the illegal units nor the tenants in the legal units must pay rent, and the landlord cannot bring a non-payment proceeding in Housing Court. However, if the landlord has a legal three-family dwelling with a valid registration statement on file and adds an illegal apartment, the landlord may seek action for non-payment, but only against the tenants in the legal dwelling units.
Eviction: If a landlord has a legal three-family dwelling with a valid registration statement on file, the landlord can seek action in Housing Court to evict the tenants. Most illegal conversions are in one-family and two-family dwellings, and owners of these dwellings do not have the right to seek eviction.
My apt. is in what was until 5 yrs ago a single family, converted to a 3. On file as a 2 family. No c of o. No permits for work. I don't know if I'm considered to be in the legal portion since it's the largest & least renovated of the 3 apts? The top floor apt is illegal 4 reasons other than what is addressed here so that may or may not factor in as well.
Still confused.
Excerpt from the illegal conversion info:
Rent: A landlord cannot collect rent from any tenants where a one-family dwelling has been illegally converted into a building with three or more dwelling units. In such case, neither the tenants in the illegal units nor the tenants in the legal units must pay rent, and the landlord cannot bring a non-payment proceeding in Housing Court. However, if the landlord has a legal three-family dwelling with a valid registration statement on file and adds an illegal apartment, the landlord may seek action for non-payment, but only against the tenants in the legal dwelling units.
Eviction: If a landlord has a legal three-family dwelling with a valid registration statement on file, the landlord can seek action in Housing Court to evict the tenants. Most illegal conversions are in one-family and two-family dwellings, and owners of these dwellings do not have the right to seek eviction.
My apt. is in what was until 5 yrs ago a single family, converted to a 3. On file as a 2 family. No c of o. No permits for work. I don't know if I'm considered to be in the legal portion since it's the largest & least renovated of the 3 apts? The top floor apt is illegal 4 reasons other than what is addressed here so that may or may not factor in as well.
Still confused.
- bkjones
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:07 am
- Location: Bklyn
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