Do I even have a lease?

[rentalrites]

The last lease I signed with my landlord expired 2 years ago. In that lease there was always a term/expiration date. The LL and I have verbally agreed on rent increases twice since then, but we never made mention of term/expiration dates.

I now wish to move out and have given the LL 2 months notice. He now claims that I will owe him the remaining 5 months of rent.

After a term lease expires, is it then a month to month agreement or does the old leases dates just automatically carry forward to create a new term/expiry date each year ?
Should I even pay the last months rent, or just let him keep the security deposite ?
Thanks in advance.[/i]

[TenantNet]

From what you describe, you would be a month-to-month tenant. The "lease" gets rolled over every month. See the references section of the forum ... in NYC no notice (from the tenant) is necessary.

If you were rent regulated, there is a thing called a "deemed lease" but that depends on the LL making a proper offer. That does not exist for unregulated tenants. I would ask him to produce the agreement that allows him to demand an additional five months.

Many tenants do withhold the last month's rent if it appears the LL will be making bogus claims. However, the tenant would still be liable for real damages (not contrived or invented damages or bogus lease terms)

[ronin]

Your LL is full of BS. He is trying to trick you into acting like you have a lease of some sort.

You gave 2 months notice and all you were required to give was 30-days. You have been very generous to him. If he wanted to lock you in he should have given you a renewal lease.

Now that you have found a better, and hopefully more stable, deal he wants to treat you like you have a lease. If he had a new tenant willing to pay double have no doubt he would have given you a 30-day notice without hesitation!!

Good luck in your new digs.

[TenantNet]

M-to-M tenants inside the City of New York are not required to give any notice at all. LL's must give 30 days notice (for M2M tenants).

Outside the city, both parties are required to give 30 days notice.

http://tenant.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5024
http://www.tenant.net/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... 2172#42172

[ronin]

That is very interesting Tenant. Thanks for bringing that up with the actual statutes.

I took a look at the statutes and I don't think they work that way. The NYC statute is poorly written. The outside statute is fine. The NYC statute simply ignores the tenant's obligation to give notice or explicitly do away with notice. The problem with that is twofold:

1. The landlords in NYC would lack equal protection to "tenant 30-day notice" given to LL's outside NYC.

2. The tenants are given rights not reciprocal to the LL. i.e. the tenant has a right to 30 days notice but not the LL. This is similar to lease clauses that award the LL attorneys fees but not the tenants. The courts imply the reciprocal right for the LL to pay tenant attorney fees. Particularly in the absence of clear statutory language. If the statute said no notice necessary then the courts would have to directly strike the statute- a harder proposition. But the court is free to interpret the silence as oversight.

In actual practice it is probably simply meaningless to the LL to fight over the tenant vacating a month to month. But I would think the safer tack for a tenant is to give the 30-day notice prior to vacating. It's also the fairer thing to do... IMHO LOL.

[TenantNet]

It's fairly well-settled. Month-to-month tenants in NYC do not have to give any notice unless there's an agreement where it's required (usually the expired lease). Tenants outside of NYC must give a 30-day notice because the statute requires it.

LLs must give 30-days notice in NYC and outside of NYC.

This is only for month-to-month tenants, not rent control or rent stabilized tenants.

If a tenant is on a lease and it expires, then it's done. No notice is required. With month-to-month, the lease, in effect, rolls over every month, and expires at the end of every month. The terms would be the old lease. But a notice is not required from the tenant. Indeed, if the tenant stayed on, that in effect reinstates the lease for another month.

Reciprocal rights don't apply here. It's the statute.

This was discussed many times. Look for Anna's posts on the subject.

[ronin]

I disagree. The statute is just like many other that are given reciprocal rights that I have seen. The judiciary is all about cleaning up the meaning of unbalanced statutes. I wouldn't consider it settled unless an appellate court has addressed the issue. Is there a case on this?

I think it is more likely that most LL's look at the 1 month of rent they could win vs the attorney fee to collect it and simply let it go. Otherwise I'm fairly certain the statute would be interpreted reciprocally or struck if the issue was pursued to the higher level.

Yes, the regulated month to months are totally different and very exact.

[TenantNet]

Here's one article on the topic. See the last line:

Analyzing a Lease Renewal Clause
NY Times
June 22, 2003

Q. I live in a two-family house where both apartments are rented under a standard store-bought lease with a renewal clause. My lease period is March 15 to Feb.14. A month after the lease automatically renewed, I received a letter from my landlord informing me of a rent increase to take effect on April 15. Having paid the increase, does this now make me a month-to-month tenant? If I wish to move, may I do so at any time by giving the landlord one month's notice? . . . Jane Harvey, Forest Hills

A. Lucas Ferrara, a Manhattan lawyer who is publisher of the Landlord-Tenant Practice Reporter, a journal for lawyers, said that a renewal clause basically continues the tenancy on the same terms and conditions contained in the original lease. In most cases, however, the renewal clause provides for future rent increases and may specify other changes to the lease agreement.

So, Mr. Ferrara said, if the renewal clause referred to by the letter writer provided for the rent increase she began paying on April 15, it is likely that she would not be a month-to-month tenant, but would instead be a tenant under lease for whatever period the original lease or the renewal clause provided.

On the other hand, Mr. Ferrara said, if the renewal clause does not provide for a rent increase or is ambiguous in that regard, it is possible that the renewal clause would not be binding. "It would basically be an agreement to agree, which is, as a matter of law, no agreement at all," he said. And if that were the case, Mr. Ferrara said, the letter writer would be considered a month-to-month tenant. While a month's notice is required from tenants vacating apartments elsewhere in the state, there is no requirement that a month-to-month tenant in New York City give such a notice.

[NYHawk]

In NYC the LL must give 30 days notice to terminate a month to month tenancy. The Tenant is under no obligation to give any advance notice of departure.


Real Property Law § 232-a. Notice to terminate monthly tenancy or tenancy from month to month in the city of New York. No monthly tenant, or tenant from month to month, shall hereafter be removed from any lands or buildings in the city of New York on the grounds of holding over his term unless at least thirty days before the expiration of the term the landlord or his agent serve upon the tenant, in the same manner in which a notice of petition in summary proceedings is now allowed to be served by law, a notice in writing to the effect that the landlord elects to terminate the tenancy and that unless the tenant removes from such premises on the day on which his term expires the landlord will commence summary proceedings under the statute to remove such tenant therefrom.

[ronin]

Someone emailed me this case :

T.I.B. Corp. v. Repetto, 174 Misc. 501, 20 N.Y.S.2d 744 (N.Y.Sup.App.Term,May 28, 1940), (Re-argument denied 1940, AD affirmed, re-argument denied, 1941)

It appears to be good law binding on the HC, so I stand corrected!!

[sisland]

Hello,

I am trying to find out if I need to provide a 30-day notice to my landlord prior to moving out of my house in New York City, which is not rent stabilized or regulated.

The post from Tenantnet on this thread states that there is no 30-day notice requirement, however, the AG's guide linked to from this website says that a 30-day notice must be given. As noted here and elsewhere, when reading the pertinent sections of the law used by the AG (Real Property Law §232-a), it seems very ambigious and only refers to the requirements from the landlord. I tried to research cases that settle this matter, but haven't been able to find any. (I could not find the case cited by the reader above)

I would very much appreciate any clarification you can provide, and if your position is that there is no requirement, can that be clarified in the tenant's rights section of the website and perhaps harmonized with the Attorney General's guide? It seems to be a very popular and widely held assumption that notice is required and might be a helpful many tenants to have this information.

Thanks for your help!

[TenantNet]

The URL from the AG's page?

[sisland]

Here is the link from Tenant.net to the 2008 version of the Attorney General's Tenant's Guide:
http://tenant.net/Rights/attygentenantsguide2008.html.

The 2011 version can be found here:
http://www.ag.ny.gov/publications/2011/ ... s_2011.pdf

The relevant language: "A month-to-month tenancy outside New York City may be terminated by either party by giving at least one month’s notice before the expiration of the tenancy. For example, if the landlord wants the tenant to move out by November 1 and the rent is due on the first of each month, the landlord must give notice by September 30. In New York City, 30 days’ notice is required, rather than one month." (emphasis mine)

[ronin]

There is another issue. Do you have a lease? The notice regulations apply only to month-to-month tenancies, not leaseholds.

You act as if you are month-to-month but do not explicitly state that. You may be barking up the wrong tree altogether.

[sisland]

Sorry I omitted that detail. Our yearly lease expired two years ago and was not renewed, so we are now on month to month.