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Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

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Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby Kalebrulee » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:30 pm

Hello,

I am renting in a building that is classified as a B1 two family brick. However, it has three apartments and it is listed as having 3 apartments with HPD. There is no Certificate or Occupancy, but the I Card (it was built pre 1900) lists three apartments. DOF, however, has two units on record.

I just want to know if I’m in an illegal unit. Thanks for any help you can provide.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby TenantNet » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:00 pm

Cert of Occupancy are required in buildings constructed some 1938 (some sources say 1939), and they describe the legal use of a building and the floors within, either residential. commercial or other. If a building has had a major alteration, that would trigger the need to obtain a COO.

The I-card is from HPD, and an old way of registering apartments.

If DOB lists 2 units, then perhaps there was an alteration that occurred at some point. Maybe two units were combined. Have you looked at all the old DOB filings? It would take some research.

You can see a definition of B1 here:
https://www.propertyshark.com/info/clas ... dwellings/

If there is a limit as to how many units can exist in a B1 building, that would take more research. I would check with DOB on that.

You might also (not to add to the confusion) look at the City Planning/Zoning designations. Start here:
https://zola.planning.nyc.gov/about/?la ... 25/-73.733

but also look at the actual zoning maps. I think B1 is a DOB designation, not Zoning.

"Illegality" is basically "who is asking?" and also "Why are you asking?"
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby Kalebrulee » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:34 pm

Thanks for the quick and detailed reply!

Okay, so Zola says Land Use: One and Two Family buildings, and it lists the total number of units as two. It says the zoning district is R6, which allows multiple units.

The DOB website doesn't have any history of permits issued. However, the ICard from the early 1900s says it has three apartments, so I don't think they would have had to renovate to create a third apartment...

I'm asking because I'm considering a lease break.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby TenantNet » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:02 pm

Land use designates what can be built now. If it's an older building, it's grandfathered.

R6 is residential and the 6 tells how much residential and other things.

Google "The Zoning Handbook." We have an older version on this site http://tenant.net/Other_Laws/zoning/zontoc.html
but you can buy a much newer version from City Planning.

DOB permits - sure it does. Start here:
http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/bsqpm01.jsp
Start with Building Information Search, then get the block/lot number
Be aware that the DOB system is very hard to decipher.

It's possible the discrepancy between HPD/DOF and DOB could lead to a conclusion that one or more of the units are not legal. That might get DOB to issue an order to correct the plans or to get a Cert of Occupancy. But I really don't know , you should ask an architect.

But even so, how does this enter into breaking the lease? If you're just looking to break the lease and anticipate the LL giving you a hard time, you can Google "HSTPA 2019 mitigation" -- or just go here:
https://nysba.org/nys-housing-stability ... must-know/
and then search the page for "mitigate"

As far as I know, this issue also covers unregulated tenants as well.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby Bigskunk911 » Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:53 pm

Perhaps the OP is trying to make the claim the apartment is illegal? 3 unit buildings are considered multiple dwellings and subject to different laws and violations are taken seriously. Having said that before the 1920s Cofo wasn't common and so the Icard applies if no Cofo. Dof I believe on the DOB website has a disclaimair that says the DOF status doesn't determine the legal status/occupancy of the apartment.

Just to clarify the Icard isn't a way of "Registering" apartments for rent stabilization purposes, before DOB there was just HPD I believe or department of housing and buildings ,and the agency addressed things such as overcrowding,light and air,etc. The Icard actually makes your job more difficult because unless theres a Cofo it applies. Doubtful the apartmentis rent stabilized but there's a rare chance it can be rent controlled though mostly doubtful since there are very few RC units left especially in small buildings but if your family was there since 1971,maybe.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby TenantNet » Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:16 am

This question is 3-4 years old? Other than academic, we have no idea is this is still an issue with the OP or not.

You might be mixing things up. I-cards are leftovers from when HPD ran a version of rent regulation (back when things were Old Tenement Law (1867) and New Tenement Law (1902)), and it wasn't fully separate from NYS Multiple Dwelling Law (or NYC Housing Maintenance Code) type rules.

Back then HPD and DOB weren't separate either (before HPD, it was Dept of Housing and Buildings.) Initially it was the Tenement Housing Department (1901) and wasn't a separate DOB until 1936. HPD didn't exist under that name until 1978 (some say 1972).

See: https://web.archive.org/web/20071011234 ... tory.shtml

DOB and zoning are different things altogether. For any housing discussion, when one uses the word "illegal," they must specify pursuant to which law.

CofO wasn't common in the 1920's as it didn't exist until 1938.

Violations taken seriously? In what universe?

Here's a short history of i-cards:
https://www.whfirm.com/nyc-housing-mysteries-card/
But that's only one source.

Yes, I-cards are not the same as registering RS units as they have been since 1984. But back then they did register services (and maybe rents as well, but not certain about that). I don't know when they were officially stopped, but I have seen an i-card with a "1960" date. I have also seen some DHCR and court cases that turned on i-cards.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby Bigskunk911 » Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:18 am

I agree Dob doesn't take violations seriously, several years ago I read an article from newman ferrera dealing with illegal apartments and how perhaps a tenant may not be liable for rent, its a grey area, but if a 2 family is converted to 3 it's an MDU and less favorable for the landlord, can't seem to find the article, but its more or less to the OP's question.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby TenantNet » Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:41 am

Newman Ferrera is a landlord law firm. This thread is almost 4 years old.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby Bigskunk911 » Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:10 pm

Yes, old thread. I'm aware the newman ferrera firm usually in the past would primarly represent landlords but now they seem to be shifting their focus on representing tenants now that the political climate isn't favoring landlords as much. I could be wrong, but I hear them being hired to represent tenants in 421-a overcharge cases.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby TenantNet » Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:16 pm

You have to look at who is hiring them, and that person or group's agenda. They have worked on a few class action cases - I don't know if they take on individual cases. I know some of those cases have been tossed out of court.
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Re: Is B1 two family with three apartments legal?

Postby Bigskunk911 » Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:30 am

Yes, I recall LL lawyers firms can be strange allies. For instance a bunch of landlords (not going to quote actual names) allied with civil rights organizations to challenge nyc's property tax system which I agree needs reform. However, the objective was to lower property taxes for large multi-family dwellings and possibly increase on many single-family owners. The claim such system is discriminatory but using the same logic, a market rate apartment can be discriminatory or someone selling their own house at the market rate price.

Landlords are a business so be skeptical of claims that any savings by the LL will pass to renters. Giving a tax break to a doctor who's spouse get's plastic surgery doesn't mean savings will pass to patients.The history of rent regulation "reform" which was tilted towards landlords from 1993 to 2019 didn't result into savings for tenants or more affordable housing. Neither did, lack of rent control in MA,WA,OR for many years result in more affordable housing,despite that the fact that lots of land is still available.
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