“Notice to Cure” clutter ...HELP

[mbrenner]

My building is trying to get rid of all their rent stabilized tenants. Taking them to Court about "clutter" is one of them. Most people just straightened up their apartments and threw out stuff. One person moved out. Another person (who had a lot of stuff), had to clear out the stuff -- but the person hired a lawyer -- the apartment was much in need of repairs -- they filed an HP action and so while the tenant had to clean up -- the tenant's apartment was also TOTALLY fixed (there were a lot of violations).
If the apartment is messy, it's best to comply. Landlords who want to kick out tenants will try anything.

[queensborough]

People living in apartments for 25 years or more can accumulate a lot of "stuff". Sometimes you don't even know what you actually have until you start going through everything, which is very time consuming. Lets face it, trying to fix the problem in 30 days when you've been accumulating for many years is a very big job and quite overwhelming... getting someone to help you may be the only way to do it, but you have to be willing to give up some of the things you have been saving. I think that the clean out service is the best idea. It may cost a little money, but it may save you your apartment in the long run. Storage in plastic bags is never a good idea. Someone suggested the plastic storage bins which are a great idea, since they can be stacked one on top of another and labled, saving you valuable floor space and time when you need to find something.

[Concourse]

I thought Iris's post was interesting. Maybe you can email the name of the lawyer who successfully represented the "clutter" tenant in your bldg.? I didn't get a sense that the OP would qualify for the legal clinic mentioned, as he or she works and didn't talk about being disabled.

I ran a search on keyword "clutter" and found one case in housing court decisions. http://www.tenant.net/Court/Hcourt/archive/1999/jun99.html

The tenant won, but clearly this is the kind of situation that can go either way. Here's the relevant excerpt from the summary:

Landlord alleged that tenant's apartment was overly cluttered with garbage bags, newspapers, filled plastic bags, boxes, pans, pots, plastic containers and other items from floor to ceiling throughout the apartment. Landlord alleged that tenant, by keeping the apartment in this condition, engaged in conduct constituting a nuisance, as that term is defined in Section 2524.3(b) of the Rent Stabilization Code.

At the trial, the landlord and a former tenant of landlord (who also used to be landlord's attorney) testified on behalf of landlord and landlord introduced a related DHPD violation into evidence; the architectural director of Pratt Institute (who visited the apartment on numerous occasions) and tenant testified on behalf of tenant.

The trial court held that tenant and her witness were credible and proved that she had cleaned up the apartment significantly from March 1997 to the present, and that the condition of tenant's apartment did not constitute a nuisance. Moreover, landlord did not prove that tenant engaged in this conduct with the intention of harassing the owner or other tenants.

<small>[ February 14, 2006, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Concourse ]</small>

[Anna]

Compulsive hoarding is, in and of itself, a disability; It also frequently accompanies other emotional disabilities; it can be temporary, such as during the first few months or years following a trauma. The point of the Bet Tzedek conference was to educate people that such Ts should be given help from social services, not quickly evicted if they cannot clean out their apts (or make a significant dent in the clutter) within the extremely short time periods demanded by LLs and agreed to in stips by unrepresented Ts. There are examples of both the good and the bad from published HC cases: see http://tenant.net/Court/Hcourt/index.html?x=1466 , http://tenant.net/Court/Hcourt/archive/2002/nov02.html , apr01, nov00, may00, dec99, jun99, may99, feb98
Another resource:

Clutter and Hoarding

In 2003, an interdisciplinary New York City Hoarding Task Force was convened to address the complex behavioral disorder of hoarding in older adults and to develop practical tools and resources for community service providers.

As our population ages, hoarding has been increasingly recognized as a complex mental health problem that threatens the health, safety, and dignity of older adults. Although compulsive hoarding usually starts in young adulthood, it becomes particularly problematic later in life due to increased fall and fire risk. Moreover, the majority of older adults have multiple chronic health conditions, but necessary home care services may be denied until hoarding is resolved. Medicines can be buried under mounds of paper or clutter, and asthmatic conditions are exacerbated by dust and mold. Further, if the spouse dies who has been responsible for maintaining the home or if a person with advanced dementia loses the ability to organize or make rational judgments, then hoarding can spiral out of control.

A recent poll of ten Manhattan community service agencies that serve older adults revealed that approximately 10% of their clients are afflicted with hoarding behavior. Social workers reported of clients who lived in environments with

* Beds and bathtubs so filled with belongings there was no room for sleeping or bathing
* Kitchens that were unsafe and unusable due to cluttered stoves, sinks, and tabletops
* Large amounts of combustible materials blocking walking paths, radiators and fire exits
* No working toilets, sinks, heating and cooling appliances - afraid of eviction, they failed to get needed repairs
* Mounds of trash, rotten food, human and animal waste
* Insect and rodent infestation
* Many unkempt pets in need of care

These life-safety, quality-of-life and health issues not only affect the occupants but their neighbors as well. What makes hoarding so challenging is that people who hoard are usually oblivious to the problem and resist intervention. Factors such as extreme emotional attachment to possessions (including what appears to outsiders as useless junk), fear of loss, and the inability to discriminate (trash mixed with valuables) makes discarding items almost impossible.

Without a proper understanding of the psychosocial issues and reasons for hoarding, forced clean-outs, which can be costly, are often unsuccessful: dwellings revert back to an uninhabitable level within a relatively short period of time. Additionally, older adults may experience catastrophic emotional responses during forced cleanouts requiring emergency psychiatric care.

Understanding the reasons people hoard can help promote more therapeutic interventions, including on-going support and maintenance. It is our goal that the information contained in this section will help community agencies have a better understanding of, and more compassionate treatment for, older adults with hoarding behavior.

http://www.cornellaging.org/gem/hoarding_index.html

The webpage has many helpful links on it.

[prezwintergreen]

Thus far we've seen no indication that dayglo is a compulsive hoarder or that the clutter is at an unreasonable or dangerous level. Certainly that's a possibility, but there seems to be a "LL must be right" attitude in this thread that may (or may not, depending on the actual situation in the apt.) amount to blaming the victim.

[Anna]

Originally posted by prezwintergreen:
Thus far we've seen no indication that dayglo is a compulsive hoarder or that the clutter is at an unreasonable or dangerous level. Certainly that's a possibility, but there seems to be a "LL must be right" attitude in this thread that may (or may not, depending on the actual situation in the apt.) amount to blaming the victim.

You are misreading mosts posts here.
We have not seen the apt.
However, if a problem does exists, we have provided resources.
Excessive clutter, hoarding, Collyer's are all real and dangerous not only to the T but T's neighbors and anyone who enters the apt like EMS, FDNY...

Why not learn more about it?
start w/ the excellent transcripts on this page from Weill, which includes a section from former Housing Court Judge Bedford: http://www.cornellaging.org/gem/hoa_2004_con.html

[Emeraldstar]

Just some clarity: I read the orginal posts from Dayglo and only trying to help/support.
LL has made a serious alligation and irregardless of whom is what this fellow tenant now has to face this LL's notice. The "path" advisement from tenants "friends" would only rearrange items and I got the impression the LL is focused upon amt. not placement.
We all would like to believe a LL cannot "mind our business" but as we see in the post this LL is past minding. And it's true LL are using this to harass long term tenants.
Dayglo, I say to you if this is bogus then there is nothing to cure and in your 30 days that will show, take dated photos and request a response from LL in writing, but, if there is/was enough to "cure" then I support your fight and commend your efforts. Deal with the notice issue first, and search/post for advisement on harassment for future. Keep updates for post in mind. Good Luck.

[Concourse]

I don't think there's anything wrong with posting clutter-related resources. The OP may have issues here. What troubles me is that the OP said the neighbors are not complaining, and based on Iris's post I see that this issue is sometimes used as an excuse for eviction. The OP indicated that in his post.

In any event, by now this person's question has been answered more than fully, from all sides of the issue, and this thread will be a good resource in the future.

<small>[ February 15, 2006, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Concourse ]</small>

[BronxRenter]

Sorry I have been away.

A Collyer's mansion is the term that the FDNY uses. It has no real legal definition. Any residence that we enter that has lots of stuff piled up can be considered a Collyer's mansion.

Having an apartment in this condition is a risk to your persoanl safety as well as your neighbors. I have been to many fires in Collyer's mansions and they are very difficult to extinguish, we often have fatalities. A similar small fire in a tidy apartment is not nearly as big a risk as when it occurs in a Collyer's mansion.

You should make every effort to remove what you can, and tidy the rest. It's possible that you might need some help doing this, professional or otherwise. The alternative is possibly losing your apartment.

The original Collyer brother's actually died in their own apt. One was suffocated by falling debris the other starved to death, he was confined to a wheelchair and relied on the other brother to feed him.

Many other's have died in fires over the years, don't let this happen to you.

[CMurdock]

I was relieved to find this thread because I made the mistake of telling my landlord that I didn't want a particular repair (caulking of the baseboards) because my apartment is cluttered and it would be too much work to move everything away from the walls, and now the landlord is hankering to get his inspector in here so he can see how bad it is. I ALMOST have a Collyer situation in my bedroom, but I can get it cleaned up. However, I'm curious to know if using a portion of my large living room to store things in would be considered legally unacceptable.

Let me say to the first poster that when you go to court, you should bring recent pictures to show the judge that the apartment is not as bad as the landlord claims.

Perry

<small>[ March 06, 2006, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Perry ]</small>

[Anna]

How much of what kind of stuff is enough for a judge to rule that apt is too cluttered or is dangerous is subjective; same conditions w/diff judges can result in diff rulings.

Safety of T and others is common sense.

Is stuff food for fire?
Is stuff organic, can it rot?
Are there stacks of stuff that can topple over and/or impede crossing the room?
Can FDNY or other large person w/equipment easily get from window to door to bed?

[Emeraldstar]

LL will use any excuse. Phew!

[CMurdock]

Thanks for your response, Anna.

It seems strange to me that the law is not more specific about what is permissible and what isn't. I'll have to look at the law itself.

Perry

<small>[ March 06, 2006, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Perry ]</small>

[Concourse]

There are court cases you can look at, but it all boils down to common sense as per Anna's post. If you have stacks and stacks of stuff, particularly newspapers and garbage-like detritis, you can get in hot water and also endanger yourself in the event of a fire.

[Emeraldstar]

Hi Dayglo
Can you give an update on situation? Thanks.